Feminism and male aggressiveness
Aug. 23rd, 2003 02:58 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayIn a separate conversation offline with a friend, I've talked about the seeming incompatibility of feminism and male assertiveness... I'm repeating some of my thoughts in my journal.
I was raised in Georgia, in the 1960s-70s... my parents taught me to be polite, to try to be considerate of others, and to try to help those in need. Combined with prevailing social attitudes and examples of schoolgirl silliness, this led me to regard girls/women my age as fragile, emotional creatures subject to exploitation by a subset of scheming males. When I went away to college, these attitudes were altered -- women could be tough and hold their own. But a 5:1 student ratio meant that they were often still badgered. I embraced feminism, in the sense that "women are people too", capable of the same accomplishments, achievements, flaws, foibles and having the same rights as males. So women were treated as intellectual equals... but I still held doors for them, as a kind of courtesy. Or just a habit.
I still felt obliged to warn and protect women in danger, as I saw it... but as a public service. The upshot was that at college social events, I saw one guy in particular who seemed to treat women as objects, disposable... he'd entice one this week, two weeks later he'd be pursuing someone else, and on amd on. He bragged about his 200+ conquests. We were in the same service fraternity. I couldn't watch the annoyed women-left-behind and not do something... so I started warning women away from him. "Watch out for X, he goes through a lot of girlfriends, uses them and leaves them." I finally confronted him personally... "how can you treat other people so shabbily? Like toys? " His response was that why not, and his partners seemed to enjoy it at the time, and those who expected commitment were just bringing in their own expectations. I was incensed. "I'll have my fun, they can take care of themselves" was not being considerate of others.
(Later, he and I became close friends, and he was actually the best man atpatgreene and I's wedding. Different story.)
My combined upbringing and feminism led me to conclude that women should be equals -- not used as toys or objects. I viewed male aggression, hitting on women, as vestigally patriarchal and boorish. IMO, relations between men and women should be coolly negotiated as equals and partners, with the given woman showing equal initiative and interest. From this viewpoint, men being assertive or dominant was tantamount to abuse, or embracing the old patriarchal system that kept women in their place. Women deserved to be equals and partners, not objects or subservient. Treated with respect, not used for one's pleasure, or groped. Men who acted in "the old ways" towards women were uneducated, were jerks, or reactionary.
If the old dominant cultural paradigm said that submissiveness was expected of women, and dominance of men.. then subvert it! Mix-and-match.
That's where I was, 10-15 years ago.
My operating theory used to be that anyone or anything which placed a woman in a submissive or passive role was being inherently abusive. And I consequently shunned being friends with any other men whom I saw acting assertively around women. Any momentary impulses I had myself in that direction were squelched.
But the theory hasn't fit reality... there appeared to be women who *enjoyed* being submissive, in a negotiated, safe set of boundaries. And men who were assertive without otherwise being a**holes. Life is yet more complicated.
But, okay, given that there exist comfortably-passive women and comfortably-dominating men, how does that correlate with personal equality? Or the interpersonal respect and consideration that is at the foundation of politeness, arguably civilization?
All I can figure thus far is that if roles and approaches are negotiated, are safe, and are freely agreed without coercion, then it isn't really submission by women, because they could choose to renegotiate or even reverse roles. It isn't "forced". Closer to role-playing. As long as it is their choice, then individual rights are being respected. And the converse would hold for men...
Still, it's a reach for me... certain protective reactions still surface when I see what appears to be exploitation or abuse of someone. It is hard to convince myself. And I still feel uneasy about being assertive towards women myself, as if to indicate interest was to make myself a threat, somehow.
I was raised in Georgia, in the 1960s-70s... my parents taught me to be polite, to try to be considerate of others, and to try to help those in need. Combined with prevailing social attitudes and examples of schoolgirl silliness, this led me to regard girls/women my age as fragile, emotional creatures subject to exploitation by a subset of scheming males. When I went away to college, these attitudes were altered -- women could be tough and hold their own. But a 5:1 student ratio meant that they were often still badgered. I embraced feminism, in the sense that "women are people too", capable of the same accomplishments, achievements, flaws, foibles and having the same rights as males. So women were treated as intellectual equals... but I still held doors for them, as a kind of courtesy. Or just a habit.
I still felt obliged to warn and protect women in danger, as I saw it... but as a public service. The upshot was that at college social events, I saw one guy in particular who seemed to treat women as objects, disposable... he'd entice one this week, two weeks later he'd be pursuing someone else, and on amd on. He bragged about his 200+ conquests. We were in the same service fraternity. I couldn't watch the annoyed women-left-behind and not do something... so I started warning women away from him. "Watch out for X, he goes through a lot of girlfriends, uses them and leaves them." I finally confronted him personally... "how can you treat other people so shabbily? Like toys? " His response was that why not, and his partners seemed to enjoy it at the time, and those who expected commitment were just bringing in their own expectations. I was incensed. "I'll have my fun, they can take care of themselves" was not being considerate of others.
(Later, he and I became close friends, and he was actually the best man at
patgreene and I's wedding. Different story.)My combined upbringing and feminism led me to conclude that women should be equals -- not used as toys or objects. I viewed male aggression, hitting on women, as vestigally patriarchal and boorish. IMO, relations between men and women should be coolly negotiated as equals and partners, with the given woman showing equal initiative and interest. From this viewpoint, men being assertive or dominant was tantamount to abuse, or embracing the old patriarchal system that kept women in their place. Women deserved to be equals and partners, not objects or subservient. Treated with respect, not used for one's pleasure, or groped. Men who acted in "the old ways" towards women were uneducated, were jerks, or reactionary.
If the old dominant cultural paradigm said that submissiveness was expected of women, and dominance of men.. then subvert it! Mix-and-match.
That's where I was, 10-15 years ago.
My operating theory used to be that anyone or anything which placed a woman in a submissive or passive role was being inherently abusive. And I consequently shunned being friends with any other men whom I saw acting assertively around women. Any momentary impulses I had myself in that direction were squelched.
But the theory hasn't fit reality... there appeared to be women who *enjoyed* being submissive, in a negotiated, safe set of boundaries. And men who were assertive without otherwise being a**holes. Life is yet more complicated.
But, okay, given that there exist comfortably-passive women and comfortably-dominating men, how does that correlate with personal equality? Or the interpersonal respect and consideration that is at the foundation of politeness, arguably civilization?
All I can figure thus far is that if roles and approaches are negotiated, are safe, and are freely agreed without coercion, then it isn't really submission by women, because they could choose to renegotiate or even reverse roles. It isn't "forced". Closer to role-playing. As long as it is their choice, then individual rights are being respected. And the converse would hold for men...
Still, it's a reach for me... certain protective reactions still surface when I see what appears to be exploitation or abuse of someone. It is hard to convince myself. And I still feel uneasy about being assertive towards women myself, as if to indicate interest was to make myself a threat, somehow.
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Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-23 05:49 pm (UTC)Still, it's a reach for me... certain protective reactions still surface when I see what appears to be exploitation or abuse of someone. It is hard to convince myself. And I still feel uneasy about being assertive towards women myself, as if to indicate interest was to make myself a threat, somehow.
It all seems to be about possessing power: who’s got it, what you can do with it, what will happen if you let it out unleashed. I spent years in therapy myself recognizing and dealing with my own power issues. In fact, I am still dealing with some of them. So please remember I’ve fought these battles myself.
I want to put forth some ideas, and I'm going to be fairly blunt. But mostly what I suggest is that you discuss these issues with a professional. Your social life is being hampered by these unresolved feelings.
Here are some of the issues I see:
--the cultural idea that women are weak and must be protected
--the reality of sexual exploitation and societal inequality
--the conflation of any hint of sexual interest with sexual exploitation, even rape
--the idea that if you behave submissively, you're redressing societal imbalances
There are probably more, but that's a reasonable batch to start with.
Women are weak. I'd love to see you explore the kinds of weakness you perceive or imagine in women. What is weakness, exactly? Vulnerability, emotional or psychological or physical? Showing emotion? Physical frailty, like being subject to ailments? Or physical softness, not being able to lift and carry?
What are you afraid will happen if you should expose a woman's weakness? or hurt her? or damage her? Where did you learn this idea? How was women’s weakness dealt with in your family?
The perception that women are weak is the attitude that's hard to reconcile with feminism. In this sense, at least, your attitude is not feminist; it's classically patriarchal. Protectiveness is not in itself a bad thing. I'm ferociously protective of people I love and of anyone being abused. But I also respect the innate toughness of my female friends, lovers, sisters. They can handle the truth. They can handle a question. The more you wrap people in cotton, the more fragile they become.
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-23 06:49 pm (UTC)Hmmm... you may be imputing a bit too much, here. Yes, culturally I was raised in an environment full of that attitude... but I've seen a lot of strong women, in various kinds of ways. But I retain old habits. Women can be fighter pilots, astronauts, wrestlers, oncologists, and US attorneys. And lots of other things requiring physical, mental or emotional toughness. But... I still hold doors open. And I still have a strong rescue-damsel-in-distress impulse... nothing gets me moving faster than a call that a female friend or partner is broken down and stranded on 880 somewhere ;-). So intellectually and emotionally I'm happy treating women as equals, but my in-person habits are sometimes still a throwback.
Inconsistent? Yep. I don't deny it. But most women don't object to being treated generally as equals in important areas *and* given extra consideration in little personal things, so it hasn't bitten me often.
Treating partners or female friends carefully? Yes, initially, but not *as fragile people* but as *a fragile relationship*... I don't know them well enough, so I watch carefully and try to be sensitive when I'm in the vicinity of vaguely-known boundaries. Over time, I can relax and then trust in the structural strength of the bond to carry us though misunderstandings.
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-24 12:32 pm (UTC)I don't know anyone who objects to that. Male or female.
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-24 08:22 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-24 09:41 pm (UTC)How very...something. *twitch* =/
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-25 11:48 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 07:11 am (UTC)Uh. Yeah. That's exactly the word I was thinking. Well, you got the first letter right, at any rate.
Since males are often selfish and exploitative...
And lord knows no women are ever either of those things.
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 11:23 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-24 10:04 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-25 11:51 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 07:13 am (UTC)Think that might have anything to do with the fact that you've already decided that men are worthless? Seriously, not trying to be snarky.
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 11:29 pm (UTC)Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 02:07 pm (UTC)If you approach men with suspicion and aggression from day one, of course they're not going to behave in a way that you think of as being "worthwhile".
Re: Possessing Power -- part 1 of 2
Date: 2003-08-26 11:32 pm (UTC)People *are* complex... what changed in you to cause your expectations to change?