Reflections on validation needs

[jay]

Or, why I went about dragging myself into an ongoing local social feud, since last spring... but this is not an attempt to reopen those several lines of discussion. This is a note for myself, for future reference when I find myself slipping back into a susceptible state. It is difficult to discuss, and embarrassing.



One comment at the time by firecat stuck meme-like in my head, through the summer. I've lost the link, but it was posted in a community somewhere... something along the lines of it being common to see people trying to manipulate others for their advantage, but perplexing to see someone so intent on manipulating others for his disadvantage. At the time, I shrugged it off as more snarkiness from the nebulous other side.

About a month ago, I suddenly came to the realization that she had been correct... and with more contemplation, I realized why I'd been motivated towards apparently self-destructive behaviors. When I'm depressed, or overly stressed, I'm highly self-critical. Sometimes that self-criticism comes out in my writing, although I've done better lately about filtering it. I didn't start the local cliqueishness or feuding, the current episode started in mid-2002. What I did was to drag myself into it -- looking for validation of my self-criticism, and hence of my view of reality. A control issue.

In other words, if I think I'm an unworthy schmuck, but friends tell me otherwise, there's a conflict in views of what's real about myself. One way of reassuring myself that I'm still well-grounded and in control is to find corroborating evidence. And there existed a small-c community of individuals who were easily prodded into giving me that evidence... all it took was an outrageous statement or two, or simply taking an unpopular stance in a public forum, and lots of people were happy to tell me what an unworthy schmuck I was. Thereby validating my internal models of myself. Hence there was a gain for me in so doing.

There are perhaps analogues with other power games, or roleplaying... someone volunteering to be punished because they've been a bad boy, say... but out in a public forum, there is no safeword, no way to extract oneself when the piling-on becomes unbearable. So, apart from the ethics involved in nonconsensual manipulation, this is not a practical validation approach, either.

The manipulation is/was still offensive... I can't defend that. But I can remind myself of what my motivations were, in order to intercept those in the future, or be aware of which states of mind are likely to be susceptible. And remind myself to let go of the need to be right, even right about my self-views. So far, it has worked... twice this fall I've pulled back from posting things after questioning my motives. But it will require vigilance, and probably help from friends if it seems like I'm backsliding.

And other actions... first and foremost, personal apologies to those who were nearest-and-dearest at those times, or were caught up as collateral damage. patgreene, dawnd, geekchick immediately come to mind. I have talked to all of them personally. And while it is probably too late to ever be on friendly terms with some of the people on the other side, given their own behaviors, I want to try to bridge-build a bit, and reestablish contact with those folks who weren't particularly nasty to me at the time.

And no, I'm not a worthless schmuck, either, and this isn't an exercise in self-flagellation. Or grovelling, either. I suppose it is another [expletive] growth experience, perhaps. I'm too competent and capable otherwise to keep sabotaging myself in this fashion.

Comments

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

And while it is probably too late to ever be on friendly terms with some of the people on the other side, given their own behaviors,

"...and my own"?

??

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm seriously asking here. I wonder why you felt moved to add that in, given that the entire rest of the entry, AFAICT, is admitting to his own complicity in the matter. At the risk of reading too much in to an EXTREMELY short comment, it feels like a dig at Brian--"remember, you brought this all on yourself." While I agree that Brian most certainly had a hand in creating this situation, I feel that the line that you partially quote is a fairly accurate depiction of how he views the whole thing now--essentially, there are some folks that he can re-build bridges with (and he intends to try), and there's another set of folks that he can't, in large part because what they did in that situation and later is simply too hurtful and/or they show no signs of being open to reconnection (as demonstrated by "their own behaviors"). Is there some other interpretation of your comment that I'm missing here that might be better and/or more useful? Thanks for explaining.

Re: ??

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

One of the ways that Brian and I discuss this stuff is that I let Brian know when I think his language is unclear, and sometimes he clarifies. It was a question (note the question mark); I was asking if he meant "because of their actions and my own" and had just been using shorthand. If I've hurt his feelings by asking the question, I think he knows that I'm open to discussing it, and I think (though he can correct me if I'm wrong) that Brian understands that I am not slapping him down; we have a history of talking this stuff out calmly, but not sugar-coating anything.

(Brian, please do correct me if any of this is misstating things, in your view.)

Re: ??

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the explanation. The "clarifying nature" of the comment was what was unclear to the outside observer. Thanks.

Re: ??

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(chuckle) granted, this time I had to take a deep breath and then re-read it to figure out what you were doing. This is a hard thing for me to discuss openly, there are recent scars, and I have to work on not becoming reflexively defensive.

I had felt that "and my own" was a given, since that was the context of the whole entry... I'm certainly not disavowing responsibility for my stuff in this discussion.

Re: ??

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Sorry I was unnecessarily terse; I didn't adequately adjust for your stated stress level over this, and I'm sorry it caused you angst.

Re: ??

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(grin) hey, don't worry about it! (hug) Thanks for asking.

Re: ??

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Thanks for being gracious. I so rarely post just to be mean, and when I do, it's usually pretty obvious. :-)

Re: ??

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I'm not disavowing complicity in the ongoing series... and this wasn't just in April, but as recently as early August. And your read is correct, in this context. There are some people that I don't currently feel I can ever be anything other than wary around, because of their past behaviors -- even when their given behavior was in reaction to something that I said or did. Even in the context of this thread... it's not all about me. (wry grin)

Re: ??

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

"it's not all about me. (wry grin) "

ROFL
you ROCK, Brian.
:)

Re: ??

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Heeeee. *delighted applause*

-J

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Undoubtedly, but others' personal comfort/safety levels, or simple likes/dislikes, are not mine to determine.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I see. Are there some of them that you would *want* to be on friendly terms with? (Just wondering and pondering; not feeling argumentative.)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I wasn't motivated by any interest in picking-up someone, if that's what you're saying ;-). Actually, that's a hard question, at this point in time. There are "some of them" with whom I used to be on friendly terms, and who largely stayed out of the piling-on, and there I'd like to try to slowly resume some kind of communication. Others whom I've never actually met, so I can't say.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Oh, nonono, I wasn't even thinking about picking people up. I was just musing about my own feelings about things when there are people I want to be friends with, but they're mad at me or unwilling to be friends. It's something I have trouble letting go of.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Actually, given that's Brian's already admitted that his actions were indefensible, I think the phrase you're suggesting is redundant. And while his actions were indefensible (which he admits and which I think we all agree on), some of the responses to his behavior were pretty horrid too.

I read this as indicating a continuing level of discomfort on his part with some people. Of course, I have the benefit of twenty-odd years of experience with him, so it may be the language is unclear and I don't see it.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I was just clarifying. I intended no offense.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Sorry, looking at it, my words came out stronger than I meant them. I'm still sort of touchy about all this.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Also, this should teach me not to respond to a comment before I read *all* the comments in the thread. I'm sorry. You did state that you were asking for a clarification. My response was much more strident than was called for.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

No problem at all. Thanks.

good insights

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

And remind myself to let go of the need to be right, even right about my self-views

Oy. *seeble* This one is extremely difficult for some of us. :^/ I'm glad it's working for you. Keep at it!

And thanks for the apology. I certainly shot myself in the foot enough in that whole process, but I'll agree that my initial involvement could probably be labeled "collateral damage." Although I still think it was in extremely bad taste (at the very least) to essentially attack you in your own journal, it seems that the original inflammatory comment to which I responded wasn't so far off the mark after all. :^/ I think I learned a thing or two out of that whole debacle, and it looks like you have too. Hopefully, this is true for all of the involved parties, as I'd hate to think that that much pain and anger was all for naught.

Re: good insights

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

An irony of this is that if the feedback had been less inflammatory, I might have actually listened to some of it, and realized sooner that there were some kernels of truth there.

I still feel guilty feelings sometimes regarding your involvement -- had you not initially tried to separate the combatants, as it were, you likely wouldn't have made the subsequent controversial post on polyamory that made your life miserable for a couple of weeks. That knowledge, on my part, has been an invisible barrier at times between us.

Re: good insights

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

I still feel guilty feelings sometimes regarding your involvement

It's still not all about you, Brian. ;^)

While I appreciate the sentiment of feeling bad about "dragging me into it," it's probably mostly misplaced. Although I certainly didn't know the full background (seeing as how I haven't read that list for, oh, about 6 years), otherwise I walked into it with my eyes open. My actions in posting that thing in polyamory were entirely my own. Even there, there were valuable things I learned, although as you say it definitely did make my life miserable for some weeks. I'm still processing how to proceed, knowing of the low esteem that certain members of our (dare I say it??) "community" hold me. I'm continually baffled by the "us vs. them" and "feud" mindset that seems to have grown up around this. I'm not "feuding" with anyone, and I find it unsettling that others appear to be feuding with me.

But I TOTALLY agree that had the original feeback been less inflammatory, it would have been far more likely that you would have "gotten it" sooner. Unvarnished truth, wielded as a weapon, makes a particularly poor learning vehicle. I try to take that into account whenever I feel the urge these days to level some particularly juicy sarcasm at someone--It's more likely to make someone defensive and to close their ears than to educate them.

Re: good insights

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Granted, you were responsible for your own involvement... it wasn't all about me, even there. But that feeling has been hard for me to overcome, in your case, hence my periodic wrestling with guilt and embarrassment. It is slowly getting better :-).

Re: good insights

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

Although I still think it was in extremely bad taste (at the very least) to essentially attack you in your own journal, it seems that the original inflammatory comment to which I responded wasn't so far off the mark after all.

Yes and no. Which inflammatory comment? There was one that was nothing short of quite nasty. There was another which was not nasty but which was attacking in nature (and I think we agree on the propriety of using someone's personal journal to slam them) which may be the one that you responded to. And the follow up to your reply, in essence stating that Brian will never change, he's a hoplessly manipulative schmuck, was off the mark. (It was phrased as "I have never seen any evidence of change..." but implied "....and there is not likely to ever be any, either.") And the continuing insistence of some other parties to refuse to allow Brian any opportunity to demonstrate change -- i.e., with the episode in August -- is not his responsibility.

Re: good insights

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Which inflammatory comment?

I was thinking of the one in Brian's journal that said something more or less like "Oh, so this doesn't have ANYTHING to do with you!" concluding with, IIRC, something like "get a damn clue." Brian DID need to get a clue, and the situation WAS partially of his own making--as he has written here. Although the correctness of that does not excuse the nastiness with which it was delivered.

In the follow-up to my comment, I'll agree that that person seemed to be not allowing for any possibility of change. But they correctly pointed out that nowhere in Brian's original post was there anything that he said about change--it was all about regressing to older, warier behaviors, in fact. What *I* was commenting on was what I'd seen IRL, and I didn't make that sufficiently clear (until a later comment, which was probably seen as backpedalling and "spin" by many, rather than as the true statement that it was).

I will definitely agree that there seems to be a coterie of folk that have formed an opinion about Brian* that does not allow for growth or change. I can only assume that this is some sort of safety making behavior on their parts, since it seems otherwise inexplicable to me. Nevertheless, it makes it an uphill battle at best for Brian to see the necessity for change, and to implement it, given that he must fight a huge tide of resistance at every turn. Frustrating indeed.


* (and apparently they also hold unfavorable opinions about me and about Akien, among others, though I usually only hear this second-or third-hand--very few folk indeed have had the guts/temerity to speak about this to my face or even directly through e-mail or LJ)

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

Well, my opinion, as someone who has no clue about any of this (smile, blissfully ignorant!) is that it appears that you are experiencing some real growth.... and that, my friend, is even better than 'control':
it is really learning about yourself, what makes you tick, what you do unconsciously, discovering more about how to make conscious choices, instead of falling into old patterns. Realizing that there are other ways to feel content and validated in this world, than to confirm old icky beliefs about yourself that were never true,... and are not true now.
(they are called self-fulfilling prophecies.... I think?)

it's a REALLY big lesson, and very empowering.
congratulations!
I enjoyed seeing this post, and learning of your progress.
it's really good stuff!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

someone who has no clue about any of this

(grin) consider yourself lucky. And I'd appreciate it if you'd gently remind me if it looks like I'm being unusually provocative -- not that I expect my friends to be responsible for restraining my impulses, but I could use occasional help in shedding these old patterns.

Realizing that there are other ways to feel content and validated
Different, less-destructive kinds of validation, at least.

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

uh......havent' you noticed that if I see you saying
something I think is kinda funky....
I call you on it right away?
:)

I'm that kind of girl.
sure.. I'll keep it up.....

and.. its not being "responsible" for you. it's being a 'support'.
:)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

True, on both counts. And thanks...