Jay's changed tremendously, both online and offline, since I've known him (beginning in 2005).
In terms of his online presence, which is what you have more exposure to, there has been a great deal of change. He used to get into frequent flame wars on LJ, and these days he gets into very few. Even the longer debate threads, like the recent trans one, are far lighter in tone than the ones 2 years back, and the threshhold is a lot higher for "things that make him bristle."
He also asks for help more in composing his initial LJ posts. Jay doesn't type very rapidly, and so he often manages to sound more terse than he means to; hence, for posts on sensitive topics these days, he sometimes passes them through one or more of his partners for feedback before posting them. We generally manage to catch "things that might inadvertently offend."
We're not yet as good about catching "when he's managed to obscure his main point entirely." For instance, I thought his post on the trans stuff was a simply a "public service announcement," letting people know that his avoidance and eye-averting was about his stuff, not theirs. In fact it was an indirectly-phrased request for help, intended to read more along the lines of "Hey, how do other people cope with these feelings of discomfort when a person looks different?"
Jay has been, and remains, uncomfortable at asking directly for help, since his sense of safety involves not being in anyone else's debt. In our own relationship, we're trying to find ways that he can phrase his preferences in ways overt enough to ping my New York radar (I don't catch subtleties well), without having to make them into requests. I was grateful for his mentioning in the trans thread that he didn't like earrings - this put the info out there where I could see it, but didn't either obligate me to change anything nor put him into my debt if I chose to stop wearing them around him.
Speaking of our own relationship, perhaps you saw my anniversary post to him yesterday? There is much love, and much growth, spoken of therein. In our relationship, he does take feedback, and work to change things. He stretches his boundaries frequently. He works a lot on things like learning to say no, and examining what models of polyamory fit us all best, and being a support to his partners, and making his language gentler, and opening up to new levels of trust.
The saying "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" applies in his case. If I go to him with tearful angry words about something he's done wrong, that'll make for a bad afternoon. That won't be because he's unwilling to see that he's done wrong - it'll be because he'll deeply internalize the judgement and shame that I'm heaping upon him, and fold inward, retreating to a safer emotionally withdrawn place. If I go to him with a calm request, "Hey, would it be possible to do things X way instead of Y way," then he'll be able to consider things from neutral emotional ground, and will often want to be of help where he can. I think this holds so for most people, actually.
And it's important to remember that he's from the south - phrasings that sound neutral to northeastern ears will often sound like aggression and hostility to southern ones. This may be some of why your attempts to gentle your words are still coming across like thunder to him. Using terms like "crap" or saying that he always throws things back in your face - those are going to be fighting words in his book. Sugar-coating may make us northerners impatient, but to a southerner, the effort to do so is a necessary gesture of goodwill, to establish trust.
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Re: *shrug*
Date: 2008-03-05 06:41 pm (UTC)In terms of his online presence, which is what you have more exposure to, there has been a great deal of change. He used to get into frequent flame wars on LJ, and these days he gets into very few. Even the longer debate threads, like the recent trans one, are far lighter in tone than the ones 2 years back, and the threshhold is a lot higher for "things that make him bristle."
He also asks for help more in composing his initial LJ posts. Jay doesn't type very rapidly, and so he often manages to sound more terse than he means to; hence, for posts on sensitive topics these days, he sometimes passes them through one or more of his partners for feedback before posting them. We generally manage to catch "things that might inadvertently offend."
We're not yet as good about catching "when he's managed to obscure his main point entirely." For instance, I thought his post on the trans stuff was a simply a "public service announcement," letting people know that his avoidance and eye-averting was about his stuff, not theirs. In fact it was an indirectly-phrased request for help, intended to read more along the lines of "Hey, how do other people cope with these feelings of discomfort when a person looks different?"
Jay has been, and remains, uncomfortable at asking directly for help, since his sense of safety involves not being in anyone else's debt. In our own relationship, we're trying to find ways that he can phrase his preferences in ways overt enough to ping my New York radar (I don't catch subtleties well), without having to make them into requests. I was grateful for his mentioning in the trans thread that he didn't like earrings - this put the info out there where I could see it, but didn't either obligate me to change anything nor put him into my debt if I chose to stop wearing them around him.
Speaking of our own relationship, perhaps you saw my anniversary post to him yesterday? There is much love, and much growth, spoken of therein. In our relationship, he does take feedback, and work to change things. He stretches his boundaries frequently. He works a lot on things like learning to say no, and examining what models of polyamory fit us all best, and being a support to his partners, and making his language gentler, and opening up to new levels of trust.
The saying "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" applies in his case. If I go to him with tearful angry words about something he's done wrong, that'll make for a bad afternoon. That won't be because he's unwilling to see that he's done wrong - it'll be because he'll deeply internalize the judgement and shame that I'm heaping upon him, and fold inward, retreating to a safer emotionally withdrawn place. If I go to him with a calm request, "Hey, would it be possible to do things X way instead of Y way," then he'll be able to consider things from neutral emotional ground, and will often want to be of help where he can. I think this holds so for most people, actually.
And it's important to remember that he's from the south - phrasings that sound neutral to northeastern ears will often sound like aggression and hostility to southern ones. This may be some of why your attempts to gentle your words are still coming across like thunder to him. Using terms like "crap" or saying that he always throws things back in your face - those are going to be fighting words in his book. Sugar-coating may make us northerners impatient, but to a southerner, the effort to do so is a necessary gesture of goodwill, to establish trust.