jay | A strange feeling...

A sweetie of mine today sent me an email. "...since you don't like to ask for help, I thought I'd ask for some as a way to generate ideas."

And she posted a question. And received a warm and supportive response, from her friends, who naturally assumed that it was something of concern to her. And there were, in fact, some useful ideas there for me.

It's a strange feeling watching the difference in responses over there, though, compared to the kinds of responses, or lack thereof, over here when I ask for advice. I can't help but wonder how it would have been different if I'd directly posted exactly the same question in my own journal. Some people would not have replied, certainly. Others I feel would have been less likely to offer their comments or help. And there's a nagging feeling that I would have been somehow "made to be wrong" or criticized if I'd opened myself up in exactly the same way.

Still, this was a loving and supportive act on my sweetie's part, even if I feel a bit sheepish... would these people have been as helpful if they'd known?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

griffen.livejournal.com

In my experience (which is admittedly based on your posts to your LJ because that's all the interaction I have with you), you have not changed much at all since I met you. You still talk about the same issues, you still don't respond to help, nor can you bring yourself to ask for it, and you still get offended if anyone disagrees with anything you say about the world, no matter how miniscule the disagreement is compared to the places they're agreeing with you.

As far as the other, and also in my experience, you don't respond to either carrots OR sticks if they come with any criticism at all, or any feedback that isn't 100% positive. I could be piling carrots in front of you and you'd still focus on the single twig that made it into the pile - and then reject it all and feel justified in doing so, as you did with my first comment to this post because I dared to use the word "crap" and the metaphor "throwing it back in my face."

Essentially, you're asking me to sugar-coat my feedback and make sure I never, ever say a single thing that might possibly offend you, and that's one thing I'm not going to be able to do for you, Brian. To be honest, I'm flabbergasted that you managed to take offense at the first comment I made, when I was doing my level best to be calm and neutral. At this point, no matter what I say, you'll manage to find an attack in it somehow, because your triggers are so many and often so unusual that there's no avoiding them.

From:

tenacious-snail.livejournal.com

I met

brian1789 almost four years ago, so all of my data is during that time frame.

I've seen that where he used to respond as though attacked to things that were at a 4 on a scale of 10, at all times. These days, its usually more like around a 7, most of the time. If he's already feeling stressed or sleep deprived or like he's been attacked in another quarter, he's more likely to start responding at a 6 or a 5. If the perceived attack is coming from someone who is in his category of "perceived attacker", you can probably subtract a number off of that.

I think both of you have assumptions on how the other is going to behave (attacking/feeling attacked) that makes this cycle actually harder to get out of, because interactions are colored by past experience and assumptions, so that any data that supports those assumptions are given more weight.

(for reference, my own "am going to perceive myself as attacked" would probably be at around 8 or 9 on that scale).

From:

patgreene.livejournal.com

I would like to point out that in the last two posts that I've seen you and Brian cross words on in *his* journal, you have expressed a level of unpleasantness you would not brook in your own.

Had it been me, I myself would have gotten somewhat defensive at your first response to him, and certainly at the suggestion I had made no progress at all in 5 years.

And yes, he has changed, even if it is not apparent in his LJ. Part of the issue is that he posts about these things when he is feeling unsettled or confused, and less likely to be relying on new behaviors than old, ingrained ones. Or when other stresses are occurring.

From:

griffen.livejournal.com

So saying "No matter what I say or do to try to help you, you ignore it or reject it, so I'm not going to try anymore" is a level of unpleasantness I wouldn't tolerate in my own journal? I must say I'm surprised at your response as well (not to mention that I disagree with you on that point).

He wanted to know if he would get the same response here as he got indirectly in someone else's journal. My answer is no, because the way he responds to offers of help and suggestions for change makes that kind of response impossible. I was simply letting him know why it wasn't possible for me to give that kind of a response; when I do, it gets rejected out of hand.

And he may have changed. As I said, based on his LJ (which is the only interaction I have with him) it does not appear that he has. I will take what you and others have said about there having been real change off-LJ, as well as what you have said about how he uses his LJ, into consideration and try not to assume that there has not been change simply because it is not apparent in his LJ. I would appreciate an acknowledgment that at this distance and through this medium it's quite difficult to see that, however.

From:

dawnd.livejournal.com

Hey Griff--
I tried to reach you in IM to confirm that it would be OK to look at the communication BETWEEN you and Brian (since you have not explicitly given permission for feedback, although Brian essentially has in this particular entry). In the interests of not waiting around for about three days till we catch up with one another, I'm going to go ahead. I am acknowledging here, though, that you haven't asked, and that it might be uncomfortable. I hope that it will be helpful to you, Brian, and anyone else reading, however. Let me know if it's too much, though.

In response to THIS comment, yes, it's difficult for you to see how he has changed at that distance. He HAS changed, though. Others have mentioned fewer and less intense flame wars, and I'll agree. In person, I see even more change. It's not rocket fast, it's not direct, and it's not necessarily without backtracking. But that's true for most folks when they are working on their "stuff." I know it's true for me. :^)

I will also submit that it's difficult for you to see change because of your own filters. You expect him to be a certain way based on past experience, and so you see that. It might be easier to see change if you try to "put on fresh eyes." I also find that wherever I personally have issues, I will be more sensitized to those issues in others. So you may be projecting some of your own stuff onto him as well.

Anyhow, I'm gonna head back up to the top of the thread in a little bit (need to attend to some other stuff first), and make a few comments about where I perceive your interaction went awry. Hope that's OK; please let me know if it's not.

(hugs), and best wishes on the stressful stuff in your own life right now.

From:

cyan-blue.livejournal.com

Jay's changed tremendously, both online and offline, since I've known him (beginning in 2005).

In terms of his online presence, which is what you have more exposure to, there has been a great deal of change. He used to get into frequent flame wars on LJ, and these days he gets into very few. Even the longer debate threads, like the recent trans one, are far lighter in tone than the ones 2 years back, and the threshhold is a lot higher for "things that make him bristle."

He also asks for help more in composing his initial LJ posts. Jay doesn't type very rapidly, and so he often manages to sound more terse than he means to; hence, for posts on sensitive topics these days, he sometimes passes them through one or more of his partners for feedback before posting them. We generally manage to catch "things that might inadvertently offend."

We're not yet as good about catching "when he's managed to obscure his main point entirely." For instance, I thought his post on the trans stuff was a simply a "public service announcement," letting people know that his avoidance and eye-averting was about his stuff, not theirs. In fact it was an indirectly-phrased request for help, intended to read more along the lines of "Hey, how do other people cope with these feelings of discomfort when a person looks different?"

Jay has been, and remains, uncomfortable at asking directly for help, since his sense of safety involves not being in anyone else's debt. In our own relationship, we're trying to find ways that he can phrase his preferences in ways overt enough to ping my New York radar (I don't catch subtleties well), without having to make them into requests. I was grateful for his mentioning in the trans thread that he didn't like earrings - this put the info out there where I could see it, but didn't either obligate me to change anything nor put him into my debt if I chose to stop wearing them around him.

Speaking of our own relationship, perhaps you saw my anniversary post to him yesterday? There is much love, and much growth, spoken of therein. In our relationship, he does take feedback, and work to change things. He stretches his boundaries frequently. He works a lot on things like learning to say no, and examining what models of polyamory fit us all best, and being a support to his partners, and making his language gentler, and opening up to new levels of trust.

The saying "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" applies in his case. If I go to him with tearful angry words about something he's done wrong, that'll make for a bad afternoon. That won't be because he's unwilling to see that he's done wrong - it'll be because he'll deeply internalize the judgement and shame that I'm heaping upon him, and fold inward, retreating to a safer emotionally withdrawn place. If I go to him with a calm request, "Hey, would it be possible to do things X way instead of Y way," then he'll be able to consider things from neutral emotional ground, and will often want to be of help where he can. I think this holds so for most people, actually.

And it's important to remember that he's from the south - phrasings that sound neutral to northeastern ears will often sound like aggression and hostility to southern ones. This may be some of why your attempts to gentle your words are still coming across like thunder to him. Using terms like "crap" or saying that he always throws things back in your face - those are going to be fighting words in his book. Sugar-coating may make us northerners impatient, but to a southerner, the effort to do so is a necessary gesture of goodwill, to establish trust.