Not bad or good... chaotic

[jay]

Tonight's PPP was pretty good, rather chaotic for me with good and bad moments. Thanks to mikz for being there and talking as soon as I arrived in the pool... that helped me ice-break and enjoy the rest of the evening more than otherwise. The rest of HD was there, and I was glad to see them... even if I'm still annoyed at one of them for something zie said (that pushed one of my buttons, hugely)... maybe I should start calling myself Jay again, in these circles. Confusing. Chaotic.

I wandered a bit less than I would have liked (didn't arrive until 10:20pm), but spent lots of time with oakdragon, runeshower, redhawke, phoenixrisen and grynz. One of them gave me a pleasantly-unexpected kiss, near the end :-). Confusing. Conversely, I missed spending much time with dawnd or akienm, except in passing during cleanup afterwards, and only got to wave to mactavish as she was leaving, just after I arrived. A bit chaotic.

The weather cooperated... it cooled down, and the pool temperature was a bit lower than at some past parties. And others liked my strawberries with chocolate sauce and whipped cream, it all disappeared :-).

I think I've come to the conclusion that I have no idea who is attracted or interested in me, personally... people that I think might be interested, then do or say something to the contrary. People that I'm pretty sure are indifferent, or just-friends at best, surprise me with affectionate gestures. I'm just confused, now. Nothing correlates, it's all chaotic. Time to sleep.

Comments

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

ven if I'm still annoyed at one of them for something zie said (that pushed one of my buttons, hugely)... maybe I should start calling myself Jay again, in these circles.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise I hugely pushed your buttons. Given our discussions about this earlier while on a marsh walk, I thought even then you were joking. It wasn't clear to me that being referred to as "the other Brian" pushed a button.

I've asked Bryan to come up with another name I could call him, one has yet to be decided on. Hopefully that will resolve some of the confusion. Calling you Jay would confuse people at work, I think, so this is a better route.

One of them gave me a pleasantly-unexpected kiss, near the end :-). Confusing. [...] People that I'm pretty sure are indifferent, or just-friends at best, surprise me with affectionate gestures. I'm just confused, now. Nothing correlates, it's all chaotic.

Why are you sure people are indifferent? How do you know? It seems to me that these gestures indicate something about how they want to relate to you. It could also be the magic of the pool party, which has been known to cast a net of cuddle vibes over folks.

I think that, once again, you sell yourself short. You have a lot of good qualities and others see that in you. As long as you are reaching out, I think you'll find yourself being welcomed in. If you seem hesitant, then others may incorrectly assess what it is that you want and back off.

You're still learning the social dance. I think last night some people were showing you some steps, while others were expressing genuine affection.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I thought even then you were joking.
Don't worry about it... the more sensitive I am to something, the more likely I am to try to tightly control or suppress my own response. You wouldn't have known any differently unless I had lost it then...

I'm normally pretty insecure and expect to be overlooked or forgotten in social settings, so this issue was beautifully shaped to boost that particular set of my anxieties. But it's my problem. I'm sorry that I overreacted at first, leaving you there with karenbynight.

Calling you Jay would confuse people at work, I think
Possibly, but I was thinking socially. My naming convention has been that blood relatives (parents and siblings) and patgreene all call me Jay; closest friends and sweeties also call me that, unless they'd prefer otherwise. The rest of the world calls me Brian, or "hey, you..." ;-).

Why are you sure people are indifferent?

Lack of prior flirting, eye contact or conversation, given opportunities for such (like overlapping at events)?

the magic of the pool party

More likely, I think. Not indicating anything significant or ongoing.

As long as you are reaching out, I think you'll find yourself being welcomed in

Thanks for the optimism... I still feel like I'm bothering others when I try to reach out. And a chance that I'm slightly annoying someone else outweighs the general loss of connections on my part.

some people were showing you some steps

Hmmm... that's sweet of them, for some random stranger. But more plausible than genuine affection, for the most part. But I suppose that that's possible, too...

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

If you seem hesitant, then others may incorrectly assess what it is that you want and back off.

Bingo. Everyone always assumes that everything is about them. Therefore, if you are uncomfortable with me (for example), then it must be because I've done something to offend you. Not wanting to offend, I would back off and wait for some signal that all is really OK. If you then are waiting for ME to give YOU some "all ok" signal, then we'll sit there in stalemate forever. It's not an optimal way of being, but it is by far the MAJORITY way of being in our society.


I've asked Bryan to come up with another name I could call himfelt comfortable with you. It's at least an invitation to friendship. Think of it as one more person that you can be friendly with at events, who is likely to be very grateful to you for being friendly back (believe me she's at least as uncomfortable in these situations as you are. AT LEAST.)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Not wanting to offend, I would back off and wait for some signal that all is really OK.

Interesting... the symmetry argument seems valid, but doesn't come naturally. In the sense of "I know *I'm* a f^&K-up, but why are *you* holding back? You haven't done anything... " Unless one assumes that the other person is running the same script. It just doesn't occur to me, at least, that anyone else could be backing-off and waiting for a signal from *me*. I'm hard to offend, one-to-one, and it's hard to believe that others would be concerned with not-offending me anyway...

we'll sit there in stalemate forever

a la LSS?

likely to be very grateful to you for being friendly back

seems like a strange concept, almost alien. Mildly happy, perhaps, but it's hard to imagine *gratitude* for my friendship...

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Unless one assumes that the other person is running the same script. It just doesn't occur to me, at least, that anyone else could be backing-off and waiting for a signal from *me*.

My point EXACTLY, Brian. Most people assume that everyone else is just like them. Trust me, other people WILL be backing off and waiting for a "go ahead" signal.


a la LSS?

huh?


it's hard to imagine *gratitude* for my friendship...


In this case, absolutely.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Sorry... LSS = so-called "Lesbian Sheep Syndrome", circling without anyone actually taking the lead (so nothing happens). Although when I first saw it, I thought of "Large Space Structures" (different field of study ;).

This case = the PPP one referenced, I guess... still surprising.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

LSS = so-called "Lesbian Sheep Syndrome"

Yes, exactly. :^)


This case = the PPP one referenced, I guess... still surprising.

Believe it.

Think about this Brian: What do you have to lose by believing that someone might want to be your friend? NO, really, think about it. You must feel you have something to lose, because you're defending your right to feel left out awfully hard.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

If I believe that someone (or many someones) might want to be my friend, then I feel I have an obligation to that person or persons... and with that comes a long-term time-and-energy commitment on my part. Not to be assumed lightly.

In parallel, there's a defensive structure that helps me minimize the pain when I'm rejected by others, by owning the rejection. If my expectations are then met with someone, I'm still in control of the situation (even if it still hurts a bit). If someone still wants to be my friend despite the smokescreen, then I've lost control but have a new friend in compensation, which more than makes up for it.

And I generally avoid the worst-case scenario, which is opening my heart unconditionally to someone else (i.e., losing control over the outcome) and *then* getting rejected. Maybe I'll lay out a game-theoretic table... there *is* a rationale to my approach. My low-key self-deprecation and stated expectations of being left-out are like little controlled fires that I intentionally set to clear out firebreaks, so that I won't be overwhelmed by huge uncontrolled emotional firestorms triggered by others.

Behind all of that, my self-esteem is actually quite robust, even bordering on arrogance in some areas ;-).

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

OK, I'm gonna pick this to pieces in a moment, partially in an effort to truly understand what you are saying, and partially to try to express my rather different perspective on this. You have been warned.

A paraphrase of what you said, with emphasis: If you BELIEVE that someone MIGHT want to be your friend then you FEEL an obligation.

So refusing to believe that someone might want to be your friend is a way you avoid feeling an obligation.

Interesting choice.

What if there were no obligation? Personally, I don't think that someone expressing an interest in friendship occurs any sort of obligation whatsoever. Their feelings, their responsibility. Now, in an established friendship, where both parties are agreed about it, there MIGHT be some degree of COMMITMENT (I am committed to helping my friends wherever possible, for instance, within the bounds of my own personal safety and my established commitments to family and other friends). But even there, I'd stop short of calling it obligation.

Again: What if there were no obligation? Would you then feel it necessary to avoid any perception on your part that others might want to reach out and be friends with you? Do you see that this belief is likely a core piece of why you feel lonely and left out all the time? Because you are choosing to feel left out and lonely? Because the alternative--obligation--is far scarier than being lonely?


...If my expectations are then met with someone, I'm still in control of the situation (even if it still hurts a bit).

What makes you think you are EVER "in control of the situation"? Their feelings are THEIR FEELINGS--you have no control over their feelings. Heck, you don't even have control over YOUR feelings. You have control over your ACTIONS in RESPONSE to those feelings. But you have no control over anyone's feelings, or anyone's actions other than your own. Influence, persuasion, gentle nudging, requests, yes. But not control.


my self-esteem is actually quite robust, even bordering on arrogance in some areas ;-)

Yes, in this case I'd agree with those who made that assessment, with no irony whatsoever. I would consider it quite arrogant for you to believe that you have any sort of control over other people's feelings, good or bad. To attempt to manipulate other people in this way is definitely arrogant (as well as annoying and off-putting).

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

You could call him "Klech the lech!" ;^D

But I'm just a sweet young blond innocent virgin!

'sides, I think we're settling into a I-get-referred-to-as-"bry" to resolve the matter. I haven't commonly gone by my last name since high school (well, except for that giggly introduction with circusscreamer a couple of weekends ago).

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Hee hee. Well, it just HAD to be said, what with all the fun and action you've been getting recently.

But I agree, "Bry" is just easier and more appropriate for general day-to-day use.

Hi Bry!