jay | Is jealousy rational?

Current Mood: contemplative

Is jealousy rational?

dawnd and

akienm are holding a local workshop on jealousy issues, tonight, so I thought I'd toss out a few contemplations...

Jealousy, particularly in polyamorous settings and groups, seems to me to be an attribute that no one wants to admit... the closest thing to labelling a "bad" emotion. But it is commonplace, IMO... and possibly rational.

Suppose A has an existing long-term relationship with B, and then B begins developing a new interest in C. Assume that A,B, and C are all reasonably busy people with other career and relationship commitments filling out their respective schedules, so there isn't lots of slack available. Love may be infinite, but time and energy are finite resources. Reasonably, A can expect that B's new energy and time going into developing a relationship (or friendship) with C will come from somewhere -- probably drawn from several places, including the relationship between A--B. Unless A is secretly looking to withdraw from or dump B, A will see this reduced time and energy from B as a loss, with a concomitant gain for C.

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward, and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B. And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

So, in a new relationship of friendship between B and C... they each gain a new experience with each other, a new connection, shared likes and activities, NRE, perhaps ongoing love and support from each other.

But, rationally, what's in it for A? A would seem to be a identifiable loser from the new connection between B--C, therefore jealousy would be a rational response on A's part. And A would be justified in not supporting the B--C connection.

A's network would see one of its linkages (between A--B) reduced in energy and strength, especially for the first year or so during NRE, if that happens. The only gains that I can see are if C brings something positive to A's network... making B happier or relieving A of the burden of going clothes-shopping with B, say. Or if adding C adds resources (season tickets? social connections? different viewpoints?) to the local area network. Or perhaps, given a poly network, if C develops some connection to A as well.

So... I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I could see jealousy as a frequent-but-rational response. For poly people, I view it as a kind of dues-paying... gritting one's teeth and letting one's partners go, in exchange for the right to do likewise if one so chose. A given net loss, balanced by one's own possible future net gains in new relationships and friendships.

Someone's willingness to try poly might then balance on the magnitude of the loss(es) vs. that person's probability of finding other connections themselves. Not that there isn't lots of cause for jealousy in the mainstream -- looks at daytime TV -- but with more-frequent, ongoing connections, I think that poly is particularly jealousy-provoking, potentially. Hence the socialized "jealousy is bad" response in poly circles...

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When I'm in an A position, I'm happy that B's having a great time. In a lot of ways your arguments wouldn't differ much if, say, B developed a new hobby that required some time that they used to share with A, pr requires money for equipment that used to be uncomitted shared income, or means that they have to travel away from home to do it.

Jealousy isn't automatically rational or irrational. Loss isn't inevitable in a poly situation, and neither for that matter is gain. I appreciate your logic, but there's more to it than that that's always situation-dependent.

Please think about this before you immediately respond with an argument. If I'm going to get into this with you, I want to see some evidence that your statment of "I'm open to being convinced otherwise" is accurate.

-J

I know *lots* of poly people in successful poly relationships who readily admit to having and coping with jealousy. Lots.

I think you and I might have different definitions of jealousy, because I don't feel it the way you're describing.

If I'm A, then jealousy would be not wanting C to have B. Generally, if I feel anything, it's more envy, meaning I want to be part of the event/plan/time, but not that I don't want B to have it.

But that's true of any outside activity that doesn't include me, not just poly. What if B decides to take up swing dancing? Or RPGs? Or any activity I'm not part of? There's a balance in any relationship, of activities that include both partners, and activities that include only one. Why should it be any different in how time, money, etc. are considered?

Does that make sense? I'm kind of doing a brain dump rather than thinking it completely out.

Another thought:

And A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

[...]

But, rationally, what's in it for A?

I have additional benefit and fun when my partners have new partners:

I get to see someone I love all happy and bubbly.
I sometimes get to have more alone-time, or more time with my other partners, which I like.
Often, the person with the new relationship is extra-sweet and accommodating, in order to be sure not to be a burden. Call me selfish, but I like it when my partners are extra-sweet.
In my life, it has almost always been the case that when a partner gets a new sweetie, I get an interesting new friend.
Sometimes (but I don't care that much about this one), the new sweetie will do stuff with my partner that I'm not that interested in, leaving me free to do the stuff I *am* interested in with that partner.

Not saying it's this way for you, just that in my life, new loves for my partners are generally a good thing.

Jealousy, particularly in polyamorous settings and groups, seems to me to be an attribute that no one wants to admit... the closest thing to labelling a "bad" emotion. But it is commonplace, IMO... and possibly rational.

To be honest, it was hard for me to get past that, as it is, from the outset, fallacious. Either you've read or heard me say I get jealous sometimes, or you haven't been paying attention. I can promise you

joedecker gets jealous. I can think of one other person in a happy, successful poly relationship who's admitted jealousy in public fora -- either LJ or in person, probably near you -- but don't know whether she'd want me to name names. I might point her at this post, though. And I know plenty of other people, too. It is commonplace, rational, and though some people at an extreme end of the spectrum think of it as "bad" or possessive, lots of people see it as normal. You're getting your data from a non-representative sample.

Suppose A has an existing long-term relationship with B, and then B begins developing a new interest in C. Assume that A,B, and C are all reasonably busy people with other career and relationship commitments filling out their respective schedules, so there isn't lots of slack available. Love may be infinite, but time and energy are finite resources. Reasonably, A can expect that B's new energy and time going into developing a relationship (or friendship) with C will come from somewhere -- probably drawn from several places, including the relationship between A--B. Unless A is secretly looking to withdraw from or dump B, A will see this reduced time and energy from B as a loss, with a concomitant gain for C.

This makes sense to me only if A and B are at the minimal overlap of their needs for each other's time and energy. Imagine if I wanted to hang out with, say,

deyo for 10-20 hours a week, and he wanted to hang out with me for 15-25 hours a week. If we're consistently getting 15 or so, there's plenty of room for slack within the 15-20 range. Sometimes he'll get a little more of me, sometimes less. Sometimes I'll have less free time, sometimes more. But if we're consistenly in the 20 hours a week zone, then there's not so much room for slack, as any time away from him will take him outside of what he needs from me. In my experience, the most success I've had with time management has been when my partner and I have a wide overlap.

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward,
and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B.

This is true if A considers providing emotional support for B as a burden. I don't see providing emotional support for my partner as a burden. If my
partner were to seek out dramatic relationships, or stay for a long time in a relationship that's clearly problematic, my sympathy might get bare
now and then, but I still don't see that as a burden. It's something I'd discuss with my partner.

And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And
A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

They can't have fun themselves elsewhere? I pay attention to

deyo's partners (I don't track their sexual history, that's not my responsibility)
from afar, but just because I'm not having sexual fun with them doesn't mean I'm not having any at all.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order
effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

You're really stretching that, though. Everyone in a poly relationship can opt out of that. I think many do.

deyo and I have dibs on each
other's birthdays and "normal" holiday times and special occasions, period. We can negotiate around that, but we don't have to. Anyone can say, "Okay, but I'd really like to save [specific time or day] for us," and negotiate that. If negotiation is impossible, that might say more about the suitability of the arrangement than something specific about polyamory and whether jealousy is normal.

in a new relationship of friendship between B and C... they each gain a new experience with each other, a new connection,
shared likes and activities, NRE, perhaps ongoing love and support from each other.

Usually

rationally, what's in it for A?

I'll think about the newest relationship

deyo is currently losing.

A would seem to be a identifiable loser from the new connection between B--C, therefore jealousy would be a rational response on A's part.

I haven't yet found a way, even stretching my brain and using all your evidence, to see myself as an identifiable loser with this. He's got a date with her tomorrow night,
his first full evening "home" after a weekend away. But he hasn't seen her for 2 1/2 weeks because he's been sick, or she's been busy, or work's been sucking him dry, so I've been suggesting for more than
a week that he set a date with her. And I'll see him tomorrow morning, and he and I have a date planned for Thursday. And if he dies on his way home from seeing her on Tuesday, well, we've still gotten eight
good years together. Where's the loss? She's a nice person, he's happy to be around her. He comes home happy when he's been seeing her. My happiness at his enjoyment of his relationship with
her is reflected in his eyes, I can see that he appreciates my caring about their relationship and that builds intimacy between the two of us. It's win-win-win, all the way around.

And A would be justified in not supporting the B--C connection.

I'm sure there are situations in which that's true, but you haven't supported the argument here, anyway. You've drawn examples that don't hold water without a lot of assumptions.

A's network would see one of its linkages (between A--B) reduced in energy and strength, especially for the first year or so during NRE, if that happens.

If my partner loses energy and strength from a relationship, there would be something wrong with the relaitonship in my view. Good relationships energize, they don't sap energy.

The only gains that I can see

I get the sense that you're only seeing what you're looking for

are if C brings something positive to A's network... making B happier or relieving A of the burden of going clothes-shopping with B, say. Or if adding C adds resources (season tickets? social connections? different viewpoints?) to the local area network. Or perhaps, given a poly network, if C develops some connection to A as well.

There's no real response to this, as it depends on your foregone conclusions.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I could see jealousy as a frequent-but-rational response. For poly people, I view it as a kind of dues-paying... gritting one's teeth and letting one's partners go, in exchange for the right to do likewise if one so chose. A given net loss, balanced by one's own possible future net gains in new relationships and friendships.

I don't really consider jealousy to be a bad thing, either. When I get jealous, it's sometimes because I see the other person as getting something I'm missing out on. But he's not a mindreader, he doesn't
know what I think I'm missing out on. When I express it, as I've done recently, we take steps to alleviate it, and it gets better. For instance, he was going out on dates with his new partner, but
all of our relationship time for awhile seemed practical: shopping, visiting his mom (which is fun! but practical), talking while we got ready for work. That time
is nice, but I was missing out on date time without other obligations. This started as jealousy, but once I figured out what I needed, I expressed it, and now we have
two full nights a week that are planned date nights, though they're flexible with negotiation. Sometimes we cuddle on the sofa and watch a DVD, sometimes we
make and eat a nice dinner together, sometimes we take the dog to the park then go out for burgers. (This is DJ's preferred date night activity.) Because one of those
nights is Saturday, sometimes we go to a party together, or he says that, say, his girlfriend has a performance on Saturday and he'd like to go, would I like to come with him, or can we reschedule date night for Sunday? It's negotiable.
Anyway, that's a long way to say that jealousy isn't abnormal, but it's not necessarily a burden to bear. It can also be a tool for figuring out what one needs and whether that can be negotiated.

Someone's willingness to try poly might then balance on the magnitude of the loss(es) vs. that person's probability of finding other connections themselves.

Right, or on the magnitude of perceived losses, whether or not they exist.

Not that there isn't lots of cause for jealousy in the mainstream -- looks at daytime TV

Oh, there's a realistic example. ;)

but with more-frequent, ongoing connections, I think that poly is particularly jealousy-provoking, potentially.

Potentially. And the more I drive my car, the more risk I take of severe, live-changing collision -- but I wear my seatbelt, drive defensively, and make sure my tires are good.

Hence the socialized "jealousy is bad" response in poly circles...

Some poly circles, and then only some people in them.

There are only a couple of Bruce Springsteen songs I really hate. If I focused on those, I could say, "Bruce plays songs I hate." But mostly, he doesn't. I listen to all of them once or twice, then I pay attention to the ones I like

Great heaping piles. Maybe they just need to post more. ;)

I'm "jealous" of Casey's other relationship in the same way I'm jealous of his being in San Diego having fun with friends all weekend. It's time that he's having a lot of fun, and I don't get to share it with him. I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. I had fun while he was going, though, and he missed it, and is very sorry he did, too. We can't all be everyplace.

Where's the loss? She's a nice person, he's happy to be around her. He comes home happy when he's been seeing her. My happiness at his enjoyment of his relationship with her is reflected in his eyes, I can see that he appreciates my caring about their relationship and that builds intimacy between the two of us. It's win-win-win, all the way around.

Nothing really to add, I just wanted to see this again.

I'll think about the newest relationship [info]deyo is currently losing.

This isn't freudian, I was just thinking ahead about loss.

I meant, "I'll think about the newest relationship deyo is currently developing."

I think he's extrapolating from his own experience (or really mine, since he has several other partners and I currently have none, and have never had more than one in the past) which includes heavy work loads with lots of travel and significant kid rearing duties, which de facto reduces the amount of available time to begin with.

deyo and I have pretty much assumed that either of us will have to seriously consider getting into serious, time consuming relationships with anyone beyond what we have now, as we simply don't have time for it. Polyamory doesn't necessarily mean "must have many," it might mean, "It's okay to have more than one, but within one's own limits." We can't have another serious relationship -- either of us -- and give the dog enough time and get chores done and be flexible enough with each other's schedules and work overtime when work requires it. We could get involved with someone who didn't need very much time or energy, but we're not out looking for that, either.

I said a lot of what I wanted to say about jealousy back here , but I think jealousy is a *normal* feeling, but its a *feeling* and feelings are not rational, by their nature. They also are not good or bad, though some are easier to accept than others, and some are easier to work through than others.

I'm assuming that the workshop isn't about how squash feelings of jealousy, but rather about how to work through them. Teeth-gritting, while a way to respond to feelings, is not the only option.

bing! bing! bing!

yes.

What he said. If A chooses to view the situation as "I'm being stolen from," of course A isn't going to be happy. If A chooses to view the situation as "C is someone who makes B happy, and that makes ME happy," the jealousy factor is much reduced.

Of course, people are sometimes jealous of new hobbies, jobs, or other things that take time and resources away from the A-B relationship.

In the 20-plus years that I was involved in poly relationships, the one factor that came through loud and clear, despite all the good aspects (otherloves spending time to share interests that the primaries don't share, etc.), is that once A and B (one or the other) agree to add C to the equation, there is (obviously) less time for the primaries, and as a result of the NRE of B and C less in all other aspects of relationship that was previously held as "special" to the primary bond. The end result of which is your wife or husband primary (in my example) may feel reduced to "just another partner"...and the sense of "special-ness" that you had when you agreed to be life-partners is simply not there anymore.

Speaking from personal experience, having been A, the NRE of B and C, can cause both compersion and jealousy at the same time.

Exactly - and that's why I was trying to point out to Brian that it isn't so much a poly thing as a general relationships thing.

I don't want to sound too egotistical in this, but the simple fact that I've chosen to be partnered with someone makes them exceedingly special, in the same way that I am in that I have been chosen by them.

Wow. Don't have time to read all this now. But the volume of response alone sure underscores the need for this group!

And to be technically correct, what we are holding tonight is not a "workshop," but a discussion group. The workshop is what we get AFTER we hold the discussion group. :^)

Looking forward to seeing you and others tonight!

Oh damn. I thought that what I got after the discussion group were sweeties and OSOs who had complete understanding of their jealousy triggers and the ability to communicate them non-defensively as well as a wide array of skills and strategies for minimizing the harm and disruption that jealousy can cause.

(grin)

For a ten minute rant, I'm glad I was clear.

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