Is jealousy rational?

[jay]

dawnd and akienm are holding a local workshop on jealousy issues, tonight, so I thought I'd toss out a few contemplations...

Jealousy, particularly in polyamorous settings and groups, seems to me to be an attribute that no one wants to admit... the closest thing to labelling a "bad" emotion. But it is commonplace, IMO... and possibly rational.



Suppose A has an existing long-term relationship with B, and then B begins developing a new interest in C. Assume that A,B, and C are all reasonably busy people with other career and relationship commitments filling out their respective schedules, so there isn't lots of slack available. Love may be infinite, but time and energy are finite resources. Reasonably, A can expect that B's new energy and time going into developing a relationship (or friendship) with C will come from somewhere -- probably drawn from several places, including the relationship between A--B. Unless A is secretly looking to withdraw from or dump B, A will see this reduced time and energy from B as a loss, with a concomitant gain for C.

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward, and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B. And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

So, in a new relationship of friendship between B and C... they each gain a new experience with each other, a new connection, shared likes and activities, NRE, perhaps ongoing love and support from each other.

But, rationally, what's in it for A? A would seem to be a identifiable loser from the new connection between B--C, therefore jealousy would be a rational response on A's part. And A would be justified in not supporting the B--C connection.

A's network would see one of its linkages (between A--B) reduced in energy and strength, especially for the first year or so during NRE, if that happens. The only gains that I can see are if C brings something positive to A's network... making B happier or relieving A of the burden of going clothes-shopping with B, say. Or if adding C adds resources (season tickets? social connections? different viewpoints?) to the local area network. Or perhaps, given a poly network, if C develops some connection to A as well.

So... I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I could see jealousy as a frequent-but-rational response. For poly people, I view it as a kind of dues-paying... gritting one's teeth and letting one's partners go, in exchange for the right to do likewise if one so chose. A given net loss, balanced by one's own possible future net gains in new relationships and friendships.

Someone's willingness to try poly might then balance on the magnitude of the loss(es) vs. that person's probability of finding other connections themselves. Not that there isn't lots of cause for jealousy in the mainstream -- looks at daytime TV -- but with more-frequent, ongoing connections, I think that poly is particularly jealousy-provoking, potentially. Hence the socialized "jealousy is bad" response in poly circles...

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward,
and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B.

This is true if A considers providing emotional support for B as a burden. I don't see providing emotional support for my partner as a burden. If my
partner were to seek out dramatic relationships, or stay for a long time in a relationship that's clearly problematic, my sympathy might get bare
now and then, but I still don't see that as a burden. It's something I'd discuss with my partner.

And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And
A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

They can't have fun themselves elsewhere? I pay attention to deyo's partners (I don't track their sexual history, that's not my responsibility)
from afar, but just because I'm not having sexual fun with them doesn't mean I'm not having any at all.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order
effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

You're really stretching that, though. Everyone in a poly relationship can opt out of that. I think many do. deyo and I have dibs on each
other's birthdays and "normal" holiday times and special occasions, period. We can negotiate around that, but we don't have to. Anyone can say, "Okay, but I'd really like to save [specific time or day] for us," and negotiate that. If negotiation is impossible, that might say more about the suitability of the arrangement than something specific about polyamory and whether jealousy is normal.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

in a new relationship of friendship between B and C... they each gain a new experience with each other, a new connection,
shared likes and activities, NRE, perhaps ongoing love and support from each other.

Usually

rationally, what's in it for A?

I'll think about the newest relationship deyo is currently losing.

A would seem to be a identifiable loser from the new connection between B--C, therefore jealousy would be a rational response on A's part.

I haven't yet found a way, even stretching my brain and using all your evidence, to see myself as an identifiable loser with this. He's got a date with her tomorrow night,
his first full evening "home" after a weekend away. But he hasn't seen her for 2 1/2 weeks because he's been sick, or she's been busy, or work's been sucking him dry, so I've been suggesting for more than
a week that he set a date with her. And I'll see him tomorrow morning, and he and I have a date planned for Thursday. And if he dies on his way home from seeing her on Tuesday, well, we've still gotten eight
good years together. Where's the loss? She's a nice person, he's happy to be around her. He comes home happy when he's been seeing her. My happiness at his enjoyment of his relationship with
her is reflected in his eyes, I can see that he appreciates my caring about their relationship and that builds intimacy between the two of us. It's win-win-win, all the way around.

And A would be justified in not supporting the B--C connection.

I'm sure there are situations in which that's true, but you haven't supported the argument here, anyway. You've drawn examples that don't hold water without a lot of assumptions.

A's network would see one of its linkages (between A--B) reduced in energy and strength, especially for the first year or so during NRE, if that happens.

If my partner loses energy and strength from a relationship, there would be something wrong with the relaitonship in my view. Good relationships energize, they don't sap energy.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

The only gains that I can see

I get the sense that you're only seeing what you're looking for

are if C brings something positive to A's network... making B happier or relieving A of the burden of going clothes-shopping with B, say. Or if adding C adds resources (season tickets? social connections? different viewpoints?) to the local area network. Or perhaps, given a poly network, if C develops some connection to A as well.

There's no real response to this, as it depends on your foregone conclusions.

I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I could see jealousy as a frequent-but-rational response. For poly people, I view it as a kind of dues-paying... gritting one's teeth and letting one's partners go, in exchange for the right to do likewise if one so chose. A given net loss, balanced by one's own possible future net gains in new relationships and friendships.

I don't really consider jealousy to be a bad thing, either. When I get jealous, it's sometimes because I see the other person as getting something I'm missing out on. But he's not a mindreader, he doesn't
know what I think I'm missing out on. When I express it, as I've done recently, we take steps to alleviate it, and it gets better. For instance, he was going out on dates with his new partner, but
all of our relationship time for awhile seemed practical: shopping, visiting his mom (which is fun! but practical), talking while we got ready for work. That time
is nice, but I was missing out on date time without other obligations. This started as jealousy, but once I figured out what I needed, I expressed it, and now we have
two full nights a week that are planned date nights, though they're flexible with negotiation. Sometimes we cuddle on the sofa and watch a DVD, sometimes we
make and eat a nice dinner together, sometimes we take the dog to the park then go out for burgers. (This is DJ's preferred date night activity.) Because one of those
nights is Saturday, sometimes we go to a party together, or he says that, say, his girlfriend has a performance on Saturday and he'd like to go, would I like to come with him, or can we reschedule date night for Sunday? It's negotiable.
Anyway, that's a long way to say that jealousy isn't abnormal, but it's not necessarily a burden to bear. It can also be a tool for figuring out what one needs and whether that can be negotiated.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Someone's willingness to try poly might then balance on the magnitude of the loss(es) vs. that person's probability of finding other connections themselves.

Right, or on the magnitude of perceived losses, whether or not they exist.

Not that there isn't lots of cause for jealousy in the mainstream -- looks at daytime TV

Oh, there's a realistic example. ;)

but with more-frequent, ongoing connections, I think that poly is particularly jealousy-provoking, potentially.

Potentially. And the more I drive my car, the more risk I take of severe, live-changing collision -- but I wear my seatbelt, drive defensively, and make sure my tires are good.

Hence the socialized "jealousy is bad" response in poly circles...

Some poly circles, and then only some people in them.

There are only a couple of Bruce Springsteen songs I really hate. If I focused on those, I could say, "Bruce plays songs I hate." But mostly, he doesn't. I listen to all of them once or twice, then I pay attention to the ones I like

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Perceived losses, yes... and both sides may perceive them differently.

The Springsteen metaphor... if I understand you, it is that you don't pay attention to the poly circles/people where there's a "jealousy is a bad emotion" response?

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I don't ignore them utterly, but I don't put much weight on them. I can't relate to "jealousy is bad," so I let them have their opinion, but don't really get into that conversation. I know enough smart, happy people who feel that jealousy's just fine, but how it's managed/used really matters, that I know that the "jealousy is bad" people aren't necessarily dominant. Maybe they're just more vocal.

If most people who don't like cilantro spoke up about it, and most who do like cilantro were relatively quiet about it, one would think most people don't like cilantro.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Depends on conclusions? Or perceptions of value? If C brings only things which A sees as of little value, or even negative... then there's nothing to balance A's other losses with B caused by the arrival of C.

Expressing your needs, clearly seems to have helped refocus your time together and improved the quality sufficiently to compensate for some loss in quantity?

I haven't seen jealousy as an impetus for re-negotiating one's own needs, yet...

[geekchick]

Where's the loss? She's a nice person, he's happy to be around her. He comes home happy when he's been seeing her. My happiness at his enjoyment of his relationship with her is reflected in his eyes, I can see that he appreciates my caring about their relationship and that builds intimacy between the two of us. It's win-win-win, all the way around.

Nothing really to add, I just wanted to see this again.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

bing! bing! bing!

yes.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

For a ten minute rant, I'm glad I was clear.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I've seen nothing like it, myself. All of my relationships have been LDRs, as far as anyone finding new relationships goes (Pat hasn't). And so a sweetie's happiness or response to a new SO has always been invisible to me. All I can see from a distance is that the given LDR is preoccupied with someone new, and hence has less time and interest in my direction. My imagination fills in the missing blanks regarding how they are together... no win-win-wins are possible from a distance, IMO.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

My imagination fills in the missing blanks regarding how they are together... no win-win-wins are possible from a distance, IMO.

Then it has very little to do with the reality of the situation, and a lot to do with your imagination running rampant and coming up with conclusions that aren't supported by reality.

In this case, I'd say it's almost nothing to do with "sweetie has a new LDR" and almost everything to do with "Brian's not keeping rational control over his imagination, which seems to want to harm him more than help him."

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

In reality, with an LDR, is your contact lessened by them having a new sweetie? Are you phone calls/email/IMs less frequent? Do you spend less face-to-face time with them?

If the answer is little or no actual impact, then why is their new relationship any sort of an issue for you? When you get a new relationship, do you think less of your existing ones?

There's a world of difference between a partner starting a new relationship and ending the one with you. If they didn't want you around anymore, they would break up with you, not find a new person.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(shakes head, negatively)

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

Um, but I *like* C. and N., and I know that you love them and that they bringyou joy. Why shouldn't I be happy when you get to see your LDR sweeties? (and I would prefer it if you didn't try to get me to change my position on this)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I'll take that as a "please don't respond" request.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Nothing in my own experience resembles this...

[geekchick]

Well, from your perspective you're far too busy stressing about all the things your partner's new partner is going to take away from you to see anything else, so of course you can't relate to this.

And from the other side, I think you're just not paying quite enough attention. I can't speak for your other partners, but it made me happy to see how happy you were when you got involved with your most recent partner. (I wasn't thrilled about it originally, but that had everything to do with circumstances and absolutely nothing to do with the people involved.) I didn't feel it took anything at all away from my relationship with you, and it made you happy. What's not to like about that?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

As long as you didn't feel like it took anything away from your relationship, then nothing's lost and some happiness and/or connectivity is gained. That makes sense to me.

There's still arguments # 9 and 14 -- the total numbers increasing and more STD exposure -- but those are issues in which I'm probably much more cautious than yourself.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I'll think about the newest relationship [info]deyo is currently losing.

This isn't freudian, I was just thinking ahead about loss.

I meant, "I'll think about the newest relationship deyo is currently developing."

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

partner loses energy and strength from a relationship, there would be something wrong with the relaitonship in my view

What if they're gaining overall, but their specific link with yourself is losing?

It sounds like for you it boils down to him being happy (which is good in one's partnes :), plus meta-happiness deriving from your positive response.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

What if they're gaining overall, but their specific link with yourself is losing?

Brian, do you think that love and caring is a zero sum game? That if I have 2 partners, and I gain another one, the first two automatically lose some of my love and caring?

Is that how you feel when you add relationships? Not when others do, but when you, yourself do? Does a new relationship lessen the others you have?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Love and caring? No. Time and energy? Yes. If a partner of mine has a "full dance card" and then adds someone new, I'm probably going to wonder if I'll be the one popped off of the stack...

I rarely add new relationships (every couple of years, maybe) and they tend to happen after someone else has dumped me or otherwise faded.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Love and caring? No. Time and energy? Yes.

So you feel that you have to be "doing something" in order for it to be love? That's what you seem to be saying, that just knowing that your partner loves you and cares about you isn't good enough for you. You want X hours every week devoted solely to you, or you're not happy - at least, that's how this reads from where I'm sitting.

In which case, you *are* conflating love and caring with time and energy.

Do you know how often I have contact with mhw? Maybe once or twice a week, in LJ comments lately. Does that mean he doesn't love me and care about me, from your point of view? Or that I don't love him or care about him?

Time does not equal love to most people, and the people that it does equal that to usually see it as a zero-sum game.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I see the support of my sweeties as something I need to do well, if I'm going to continue to merit their affection and attention. It is detached from whatever I may or may not be getting out of a given relationship. When I'm not getting much out, it is a net burden, but one I choose/have chosen.

just because I'm not having sexual fun with them doesn't mean I'm not having any at all.

Okay, granted one could be cooking or reading or hang-gliding while one's partner and their new SO are making out like crazed weasels, so maybe both of you are having fun. But what I meant (but was too sqeamish to be blunt) was that one accrues the additional sexual disease risk, via one's partner-in-common, without any specifically sexual fun in compensation. Hopefully there will be offsetting compensations, as tolerance of that added risk is IMO a gift given to one's partner.