Is jealousy rational?

[jay]

dawnd and akienm are holding a local workshop on jealousy issues, tonight, so I thought I'd toss out a few contemplations...

Jealousy, particularly in polyamorous settings and groups, seems to me to be an attribute that no one wants to admit... the closest thing to labelling a "bad" emotion. But it is commonplace, IMO... and possibly rational.



Suppose A has an existing long-term relationship with B, and then B begins developing a new interest in C. Assume that A,B, and C are all reasonably busy people with other career and relationship commitments filling out their respective schedules, so there isn't lots of slack available. Love may be infinite, but time and energy are finite resources. Reasonably, A can expect that B's new energy and time going into developing a relationship (or friendship) with C will come from somewhere -- probably drawn from several places, including the relationship between A--B. Unless A is secretly looking to withdraw from or dump B, A will see this reduced time and energy from B as a loss, with a concomitant gain for C.

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward, and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B. And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

So, in a new relationship of friendship between B and C... they each gain a new experience with each other, a new connection, shared likes and activities, NRE, perhaps ongoing love and support from each other.

But, rationally, what's in it for A? A would seem to be a identifiable loser from the new connection between B--C, therefore jealousy would be a rational response on A's part. And A would be justified in not supporting the B--C connection.

A's network would see one of its linkages (between A--B) reduced in energy and strength, especially for the first year or so during NRE, if that happens. The only gains that I can see are if C brings something positive to A's network... making B happier or relieving A of the burden of going clothes-shopping with B, say. Or if adding C adds resources (season tickets? social connections? different viewpoints?) to the local area network. Or perhaps, given a poly network, if C develops some connection to A as well.

So... I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but I could see jealousy as a frequent-but-rational response. For poly people, I view it as a kind of dues-paying... gritting one's teeth and letting one's partners go, in exchange for the right to do likewise if one so chose. A given net loss, balanced by one's own possible future net gains in new relationships and friendships.

Someone's willingness to try poly might then balance on the magnitude of the loss(es) vs. that person's probability of finding other connections themselves. Not that there isn't lots of cause for jealousy in the mainstream -- looks at daytime TV -- but with more-frequent, ongoing connections, I think that poly is particularly jealousy-provoking, potentially. Hence the socialized "jealousy is bad" response in poly circles...

Comments

[mhw.livejournal.com]

When I'm in an A position, I'm happy that B's having a great time. In a lot of ways your arguments wouldn't differ much if, say, B developed a new hobby that required some time that they used to share with A, pr requires money for equipment that used to be uncomitted shared income, or means that they have to travel away from home to do it.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

What he said. If A chooses to view the situation as "I'm being stolen from," of course A isn't going to be happy. If A chooses to view the situation as "C is someone who makes B happy, and that makes ME happy," the jealousy factor is much reduced.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

But B's happiness -- indirectly -- has to be enough of a payback to A. And in LDRs, that's even more difficult because B's happiness is effectively invisible.

[nolly.livejournal.com]

Of course, people are sometimes jealous of new hobbies, jobs, or other things that take time and resources away from the A-B relationship.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Jealousy isn't automatically rational or irrational. Loss isn't inevitable in a poly situation, and neither for that matter is gain. I appreciate your logic, but there's more to it than that that's always situation-dependent.

Please think about this before you immediately respond with an argument. If I'm going to get into this with you, I want to see some evidence that your statment of "I'm open to being convinced otherwise" is accurate.

-J

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks for responding. I guess my evidence (one way or another) is in my comments elsewhere in the thread?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I know *lots* of poly people in successful poly relationships who readily admit to having and coping with jealousy. Lots.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Great heaping piles. Maybe they just need to post more. ;)

I'm "jealous" of Casey's other relationship in the same way I'm jealous of his being in San Diego having fun with friends all weekend. It's time that he's having a lot of fun, and I don't get to share it with him. I'm really looking forward to seeing him again. I had fun while he was going, though, and he missed it, and is very sorry he did, too. We can't all be everyplace.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

I think you and I might have different definitions of jealousy, because I don't feel it the way you're describing.

If I'm A, then jealousy would be not wanting C to have B. Generally, if I feel anything, it's more envy, meaning I want to be part of the event/plan/time, but not that I don't want B to have it.

But that's true of any outside activity that doesn't include me, not just poly. What if B decides to take up swing dancing? Or RPGs? Or any activity I'm not part of? There's a balance in any relationship, of activities that include both partners, and activities that include only one. Why should it be any different in how time, money, etc. are considered?

Does that make sense? I'm kind of doing a brain dump rather than thinking it completely out.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Agreed -- any new, time and energy-consuming activity can cause a similar response.

What is it when you feel that something that used to be between you and B, is now being given (in part) to C, so you're losing it? Is it more envy, or jealousy, to wish one had the prior level of B's attention and energy back?

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Another thought:

And A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

[...]

But, rationally, what's in it for A?

I have additional benefit and fun when my partners have new partners:

• I get to see someone I love all happy and bubbly.
  
• I sometimes get to have more alone-time, or more time with my other partners, which I like.
  
• Often, the person with the new relationship is extra-sweet and accommodating, in order to be sure not to be a burden. Call me selfish, but I like it when my partners are extra-sweet.
  
• In my life, it has almost always been the case that when a partner gets a new sweetie, I get an interesting new friend.
  
• Sometimes (but I don't care that much about this one), the new sweetie will do stuff with my partner that I'm not that interested in, leaving me free to do the stuff I *am* interested in with that partner.

Not saying it's this way for you, just that in my life, new loves for my partners are generally a good thing.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

All of my partners-with-new-partners have been LDR secondaries, so I don't get to see their happiness; there aren't opportunities for them to be extra-sweet; distant new partners haven't really become friends of mine... friendly, but rarely in contact; and I get only compressed time periodically with my sweetie, so can't pick-and-choose what stuff I get to do with them.

Maybe it would be different if I had gone through this with a local sweetie... ?

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Jealousy, particularly in polyamorous settings and groups, seems to me to be an attribute that no one wants to admit... the closest thing to labelling a "bad" emotion. But it is commonplace, IMO... and possibly rational.

To be honest, it was hard for me to get past that, as it is, from the outset, fallacious. Either you've read or heard me say I get jealous sometimes, or you haven't been paying attention. I can promise you joedecker gets jealous. I can think of one other person in a happy, successful poly relationship who's admitted jealousy in public fora -- either LJ or in person, probably near you -- but don't know whether she'd want me to name names. I might point her at this post, though. And I know plenty of other people, too. It is commonplace, rational, and though some people at an extreme end of the spectrum think of it as "bad" or possessive, lots of people see it as normal. You're getting your data from a non-representative sample.

Suppose A has an existing long-term relationship with B, and then B begins developing a new interest in C. Assume that A,B, and C are all reasonably busy people with other career and relationship commitments filling out their respective schedules, so there isn't lots of slack available. Love may be infinite, but time and energy are finite resources. Reasonably, A can expect that B's new energy and time going into developing a relationship (or friendship) with C will come from somewhere -- probably drawn from several places, including the relationship between A--B. Unless A is secretly looking to withdraw from or dump B, A will see this reduced time and energy from B as a loss, with a concomitant gain for C.

This makes sense to me only if A and B are at the minimal overlap of their needs for each other's time and energy. Imagine if I wanted to hang out with, say, deyo for 10-20 hours a week, and he wanted to hang out with me for 15-25 hours a week. If we're consistently getting 15 or so, there's plenty of room for slack within the 15-20 range. Sometimes he'll get a little more of me, sometimes less. Sometimes I'll have less free time, sometimes more. But if we're consistenly in the 20 hours a week zone, then there's not so much room for slack, as any time away from him will take him outside of what he needs from me. In my experience, the most success I've had with time management has been when my partner and I have a wide overlap.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

At the same time, A loses in other ways. Any emotional instability or drama or other fallout between B and C will ripple outward,
and some of it find its way from B--A, increasing A's emotional support burden to B.

This is true if A considers providing emotional support for B as a burden. I don't see providing emotional support for my partner as a burden. If my
partner were to seek out dramatic relationships, or stay for a long time in a relationship that's clearly problematic, my sympathy might get bare
now and then, but I still don't see that as a burden. It's something I'd discuss with my partner.

And if there is sexual contact involved between B and C, then there's additional overheads -- tracking C's sexual history, current test results, risks posed by other partners. And
A's net STD risk goes up overall, without A having any additional benefit or fun themselves.

They can't have fun themselves elsewhere? I pay attention to deyo's partners (I don't track their sexual history, that's not my responsibility)
from afar, but just because I'm not having sexual fun with them doesn't mean I'm not having any at all.

And if A and B are together in a household with merged finances, B's pursuit of C may actually cost A something... plus there are second-order
effects like B's vacation time being used with C and then not available for the annual holiday with A, etc.

You're really stretching that, though. Everyone in a poly relationship can opt out of that. I think many do. deyo and I have dibs on each
other's birthdays and "normal" holiday times and special occasions, period. We can negotiate around that, but we don't have to. Anyone can say, "Okay, but I'd really like to save [specific time or day] for us," and negotiate that. If negotiation is impossible, that might say more about the suitability of the arrangement than something specific about polyamory and whether jealousy is normal.

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I think he's extrapolating from his own experience (or really mine, since he has several other partners and I currently have none, and have never had more than one in the past) which includes heavy work loads with lots of travel and significant kid rearing duties, which de facto reduces the amount of available time to begin with.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

You guys may be easygoing about owning feelings of jealousy... and I think that's positive. But I have heard many other folks express reluctance to do so, out of fear of seeming "bad poly", etc. This came up at last week's discussion group, also.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I said a lot of what I wanted to say about jealousy back here , but I think jealousy is a *normal* feeling, but its a *feeling* and feelings are not rational, by their nature. They also are not good or bad, though some are easier to accept than others, and some are easier to work through than others.

I'm assuming that the workshop isn't about how squash feelings of jealousy, but rather about how to work through them. Teeth-gritting, while a way to respond to feelings, is not the only option.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

There are undoubtedly other ways to work through feeling of jealousy. Taking positive steps to support the new arrival are on the positive end. Surveillance and threats are on the negative extreme. And there are lots of in-between reactions... simply doing nothing and teeth-gritting is far from the worst response to a jealousy-provoking event.

Jealousy...

[ex-kerravon856.livejournal.com]

In the 20-plus years that I was involved in poly relationships, the one factor that came through loud and clear, despite all the good aspects (otherloves spending time to share interests that the primaries don't share, etc.), is that once A and B (one or the other) agree to add C to the equation, there is (obviously) less time for the primaries, and as a result of the NRE of B and C less in all other aspects of relationship that was previously held as "special" to the primary bond. The end result of which is your wife or husband primary (in my example) may feel reduced to "just another partner"...and the sense of "special-ness" that you had when you agreed to be life-partners is simply not there anymore.

Speaking from personal experience, having been A, the NRE of B and C, can cause both compersion and jealousy at the same time.

Re: Jealousy...

[mhw.livejournal.com]

I don't want to sound too egotistical in this, but the simple fact that I've chosen to be partnered with someone makes them exceedingly special, in the same way that I am in that I have been chosen by them.

Re: Jealousy...

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Your experience strongly echoes my own, and I've been A, B, and C myself at various times... the loss of special-ness in existing relationships is a very real problem, IMO.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Wow. Don't have time to read all this now. But the volume of response alone sure underscores the need for this group!

And to be technically correct, what we are holding tonight is not a "workshop," but a discussion group. The workshop is what we get AFTER we hold the discussion group. :^)

Looking forward to seeing you and others tonight!

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

Oh damn. I thought that what I got after the discussion group were sweeties and OSOs who had complete understanding of their jealousy triggers and the ability to communicate them non-defensively as well as a wide array of skills and strategies for minimizing the harm and disruption that jealousy can cause.

(grin)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(grin) hey, I simply primed the discussion!

Also, regarding your post subject:

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Does it matter if jealousy is rational? It's hurting you. And it seems that your entire post and all your responses are centered around justifying why you should be allowed to be in pain.

If you like being in pain, more power to you, but if you're really trying to figure out why you feel the way you feel so you can make it stop feeling that way, you may have to go beyond rationality, because feelings are inherently irrational and have to be addressed in ways beyond logic.