rotational greetings...

[jay]

Happy solstice, for those who celebrate it.... it doesn't work for me, per se, but I respect the choices of others to follow their own spiritual paths.
...
A useful link for those inclined to planetary movement-based holidays (solstice, equinoxes, etc) is here, with tables of dates and UTC times of each from 1992-2020.

Comments

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

This message reads to me as containing a dismissive tone that I interpret as that which is not my own belief is silly and without reason. I'm feeling it important to share with you because I've had this reaction to a few of your recent posts/comments. (And I think others have as well based on some of the responses I've seen. I can go dig up cites if you'd like.)

I do note that the common theme on these comments has seemed to be non-Christian religious observance.

You've commented recently on wanting to not come across as proselytizing, and this seeming casual disrespect appears in conflict with that statement in particular.

My guess is that it hasn't been intentional, and so I figure you'd rather hear about it than go on coming off this way.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Saying "happy celebration, even if I don't really get it myself" doesn't impugn anything (other than perhaps my own cluelessness)...

[tshuma]

I disagree.

[geekchick]

What's wrong with stopping after a simple "happy celebration", without the qualifiers? Your addition there reads to me as being dismissive of the importance of the celebration to other people, among whom are several of your friends. What I heard was "Happy solstice, although I personally think the celebration of it is silly".

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Ok, I've attempted to rewrite the post to sound less irritating or dismissive, and without losing the US Naval Observatory tables.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the rewrite. *hugs*

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

Yes, thanks for the effort that went into the rewrite on this post.


I would like to leave this thread with the following parting thoughts.
Please take this rhetorically if you like.

Do you find it necessary or appropriate to pass the same disclaimers as you have here when passing on seasonal well wishes to persons of Jewish faith?

Have you observed this level of disclaimer as common or useful in social settings between people of differing religious backgrounds?

As someone with a stated preference for avoiding making direct confrontational statements, can you imagine the connotation that going to the lengths you have here to disclaim yourself from this particular belief set above and beyond cultural norms?

I think that last one is source of the disconnect between your intention on this post and the reaction from your reader-friends here.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

My two concerns are... expressing confusion, and not being inadvertently viewed as posing as a member of something I'm not. Given Jewish holidays... I have an idea of what's going on at Passover and Yom Kippur. And rarely am I in a position where someone might think I'm posing as Jewish.

More relevant, actually, are disclaimers I issue WRT Southern Baptists and other Christian fundamentalists -- not because of confusion over what they're doing, per se, but because I feel like I need to differentiate my practices and beliefs and politics from theirs, and in some circles I'm assumed to agree unless I overtly dissent. I don't want to be mistaken as passing as a evangelical fundie, even though I *could* in many situations (particularly around my parents' in Atlanta, where it is as much the assumed cultural norm as paganism is an assumed norm in many poly circles) by doing or saying nothing.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much exactly why I wanted to point out to you how it was coming across, because I had to believe that you went into it not knowing that it would be taken badly.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Sometimes... I say something, knowing in advance that it may come across badly, because I have to say it for my own peace of mind...

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

Please tell me you don't mean for this to sound like sometimes I'm a jerk to my friends to feel better about myself. :-(

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

If I can't at that time think of a better way to convey something, I'm likely to go ahead. Indirectly, if it is actually meant as criticism or distance or sometimes agreement. Directly, if it seems neutral or an observation. In the latter case, I could argue that the use of a direct communication style, even in observances, could come across as rude...

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

And, by the way, the imputation to feel better about myself is yours, not something I'd agree with myself.

If I were going to be direct here, I might kindly recommend that you go perform some uncomfortable obscene act on yourself, given that you're trying to put words and motives in my mouth...

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

Heh. Oops. Rightfully called on that mis-used turn of phrase. The thought I meant to convey was "make yourself feel better". A subtle but very significant difference, I think.

In any case - yeah, I am trying to ascribe motives to your actions. I'm trying things on to see if they fit, because the obvious-to-me interpretations just aren't flattering and I really want to think better of you than that. In fact I generally do think better of you than the reactions I've been having to this thread. So I'm trying to figure out the disconnect.

Unfortunately, this is pretty clearly well passed the point of rational discussion. Sorry that I managed to push your buttons quite so far. I admit to intentionally pushing, it's how I interact with the world, but I didn't intend to get you quite so lathered up, and for that much, I apologize.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

My perception has been that you haven't commented at all... unless/until you decide to pounce on something or other in my journal. At which point I see the ascribing of some bad motives to me and/or putting words in my mouth. This has happened IMO several times over, and my unexpressed level of wariness and frustration has been increasing after each incident.

I haven't seen these interactions as you constructively addressing my own goals or needs, only trying to score points and embarrass me online (poking?)... and I find myself repeatedly during/after in a position where I'm angry and confrontational and defensive. Sometimes persisting for a week or two after the dust settles. This is in marked contrast to our in-person interactions, which have been much more pleasant and friendly.

I try to stoically absorb and not respond to some level of button-pushing, in the name of not making a fuss and local harmony, but at some point I hit my own red zones.

While I still wouldn't buy make yourself feel better, (see Les's view, she was on-target), I appreciate the apology, and thanks.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I am reading your words here differently from Bry. I think what you may be saying is "Sometimes, I feel compelled to say something, and even though I'm not able to come up with a way of expressing it that I am confident will not be offensive. To me, being silent seems like it would be taken as agreement with something that I strongly disagree with, so I'd rather speak up, even if imperfectly."

Is that at all close to what you're intending?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's it.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

although it still seems to me a bit like celebrating perihelion

You know, you just completely undid the Happy Solstice part. You comprimised the good wishes with derision. I'm surely hoping you didn't mean to but I suspect you did since you've obviously thought about it..."it still seems to me..."

If you want your beliefs and rights to those beliefs to be respected, you might try showing that same respect to others....if it crosses your own religious stance to wish someone good blessings on their faith day of choice and you can't off good wishes without compromise, then don't.

*sigh* I'd like to say sorry, because it seems like I'm often offering pointers or constructive criticism. But I am also aware that I have offered you much positive praise where and when it was appropriate. But I'm not going to apologize for this one. I'm just going to know that as your friend I get to call you on the carpet just as I would expect you to do with me if you thought it appropriate.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm certainly not a pagan myself, or particularly pagan-sympathetic. I'd like to find some way to wish others with different belief-structures their happiness, while making it clear that I don't subscribe to that particular belief-structure myself. Someone replying "happy solstice!" back to me in return would probably draw a blank stare.

For that matter, I'm ambivalent about Christmas trees, given how/where they originated. And much secular emphasis on gift-giving seems driven by economics and consumerism, not contemplation or faith.

I doubt I'd call you, or someone else, on the carpet if I thought it appropriate. Too direct and blunt and conflicting of a communication style for me to feel comfortable jumping in that way with a friend, or even a sweetie.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I doubt I'd call you, or someone else, on the carpet if I thought it appropriate. Too direct and blunt and conflicting of a communication style for me to feel comfortable jumping in that way with a friend, or even a sweetie.

The problem with asserting this position over and over and over again is that it leaves us to take the subtle, indirect and deniable comments that from someone inclined toward more direct communication as being critical or judgemental.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

Erm, ick. That came out of my editing quite badly.

What I meant to say was more like:

The problem with asserting this position over and over and over again is that it leaves us to take the subtle, indirect and deniable comments from you, that from someone inclined to more direct communication would be neutral, as being critical or judgmental.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

bingo!

Because Jay is usually indirect about expressing criticism, it is plausible to think that a comment that would be neutral from someone else is a criticism from him.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Actually, given that the deniability makes it possible conversely for others to take things as non-negative or not confrontational, it leaves room for face-saving by both sides. IMO a feature, not a bug.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

The wrinkle in that plan is the assertion that none of what you say be taken as negative or confrontational. Sadly that belief doen't hold up with your statements, or the (local) community in which you communicate.

In trying to straddle the middle, you appear to be failing both sides.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I may be mistaken at times by others -- in *both* directions. That's part of the cost of leaving others room.

[dangerpudding.livejournal.com]

Just as food for thought - why is a work situation different in this? Why might you think that I'd take criticism well in one context and not another? (I use myself as an example because, well, I do deal with you in both contexts, and would hate to think that you're withholding criticism in either.)

Also, y'know, sometime I'd rather lose the face and keep the friend. It's ok to be wrong. It's not so ok to never know if your comments mean that you wish I'd do something differently, or that you're actually ok with things.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Bingo -- it isn't different, in that respect. I often withhold criticism, but try to express praise, even if indirectly. Especially in a byzantine government agency, the power games and politics mean that one has to be very careful to leave someone a way out, or not attack overtly -- one may be applying to that person ten years later for research funding.

Watching old "Yes, Minister" episodes could be useful, if exaggerated somewhat.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Confrontation burns bridges and can lead to violence. If there is no way to non-confrontationally, indirectly signal disagreement, the only remaining path for me is to say nothing (and fume, or vent to others). As a side effect, others trying to interpret me may at times impute criticism where there was none intended, or conversely be oblivious to my intended red-flags. That's an annoying side effect, but I view it as necessary overhead.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

Um.

I think you're conflating "neo-pagan" with "non-JCI", here.

*Lots* of cultures celebrate the Solistice, not just neo-pagans.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hm... okay, and I admit to being ignorant of those other worldviews or faiths. It isn't something I see in Islam or Judaism...

[trinker.livejournal.com]

*nod*

Having knowledge of JCI practices gives one an impression of having a broad religious knowledge, but on a practical note, it's a lot like knowing three Indo-European languages and feeling that that gives one a broad knowledge of languages in general.

JCI holidays tend to be commemorations of specific points of religious history, but a lot of non-JCI religions have "cycle of the year" celebrations.

[archway.livejournal.com]

Happy Yule-hana-mas usually gets giggles and smiles.~S~ (Even in eastern North Carolina...~W~)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(grin)

[suspira20.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't an observation or celebration of solstice sometimes be only that, and not worship, therefore not in conflict with Judeo-Christian beliefs? If solstice celebration is prominent in Pagan worship, then Pagans may derive a deeper meaning from your greeting. Someone who does not observe solstice in worship would likely view the greeting as only a greeting - much like Happy Groundhog Day. A non Christian may wish you a Merry Christmas without implying a conversion on their part, but acknowledging the deeper meaning for you.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

That's basically the approach I use when attending nonspecific observations or celebrations... not for specific, participatory events.

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't an observation or celebration of solstice sometimes be only that, and not worship, therefore not in conflict with Judeo-Christian beliefs?

It is like that for me. I am a Christian. I also burn a candle all night on the winter solstice, use an Advent calendar, leave the Christmas tree up until Twelfth Night, notice the full moon, prepare the boat for spring launch, plant and maintain gardens in a strongly seasonal climate, buy fresh vegetables from the street market in the summer, help put the boat away in the fall, and work on an academic calendar. All of those things are about savouring the cycles of change in the year and reminding myself to live in the moment.

[suspira20.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I find profound peace and joy and a primal healing of the mind and spirit when communing with the things of nature. Hiking or horseback riding are among my favorite re-centering activities. I find that connecting with animals, spending time in the mountains or on a secluded beach, or observing the changing seasons and enjoying the night sky serve to bring me closer to God and strengthen my faith. I, too, am a Christian, and do not see nature as independent of or in conflict with faith. Rather, I find synergy in faith and nature. Each has deeper meaning for me because of the other.