Brian's darker side
Nov. 21st, 2002 09:32 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayAmongst various discussions of "when/if to ask for something" "when/if to complain when hurt or uncomfortable", or "when/if to approach individuals or groups in social settings," two entries ago is another, untouched onion-layer. Although sensed somehow by therealjae and clairaide...
One of my guiding social principles is "Avoid actions which incur current or future obligations or debts, unless balanced by similar on the other side." I am fiercely control-averse. In the workplace, I am either a lone researcher, or a project leader. With the lightest of supervision, or none. The prospect of being anyone's deputy or assistant immediately squicks me. I'd rather sit outside, lurk in the forest and wait for an opportunity to challenge for a leadership role than accept a "beta" role in some effort. I want to hold the reins, at least as far as my own efforts go. Freedom of action.
But social obligations and debts constrain freedom of action. If I owe someone a favor which they can call in to meet some need of theirs, then I lose some control over my future actions. Potentially. Or risk unethical behavior (dishonoring my obligations). Unless the other person or group already owes me similarly, and the debts cancel.
If I unilaterally inconvenience or adversely affect a person or group, I owe them recompence, and lose another tidbit of control. They will then have a hold over me in the future, whether strong or tenuous. Much of my avoid-bothering-others behavior is *not* driven by some oh-I'm-so-unworthy complex on my part, it is driven by "I don't trust you enough to give you any kind of hold over me." Or even "I'm not sure I whether I will want to associate with [person or group] in the future, so I'm not going to incur any favors-owed to them." Done self-deprecatingly, and with a smile (to avoid disturbing the other party, and thereby defeating my own intentions). The underlying arrogance on my part is buried several layers down.
If I do think I might want to associate with some person or group in the future, I'm likely to try to build up a "positive ledger" of favors-done or assistance rendered or backs-rubbed or etc... so I can relax and enjoy their company in the future, without worrying that I'm ceding them any future control over my actions. If I then do a favor for someone, it will be because I like that person and choose to help, not because I'm in their debt (social or otherwise). Maintaining the freedom to choose is vitally important to me.
So much of the turn-the-other-cheek, don't complain in public, and subverting my own needs in social spaces is motivated thusly -- by trying to make everything smoother and happier, true, but also my my rigorous avoidance of incurring favors or obligations to others, with the corresponding loss of future independence.
Conversely, if I'm willing to ask someone for a favor, or accept one offered, that person is actually (unbeknownst to them) being paid a high compliment (in my own twisted way). Likewise if I volunteer to do favors for a given individual or group -- it often indicates a receptivity on my part to longer-term association or friendship.
But then there's the issue of *asking*, of stating my personal needs to someone in the hope that some subset will be met. I see asking as functionally equivalent to begging. Loss of control... I'm making myself vulnerable, and I can't control the outcome. I may as well be prostrating myself at someone's feet if I ask someone if they would go to lunch with me, or rub my back. Or dance. Once I ask for something, the recipient can twist me around their proverbial little finger, leave me dangling, and I'm powerless. And the outcomes are all bad, in some way -- if rejected, I'm hurt. But if the request is granted, now I have incurred a new obligation-debt which will give that person leverage over me in the future.
So in my view, unilaterally asking to have one of my needs met results in either rejection, or some loss of future independence... so I don't do it very often. And then only with those that I explicitly trust to not abuse the leverage in the future, and/or with whom I have comparable cancelling favors-owed... unless I'm in over-my-head in a situation or otherwise desperate.
But multilateral statements of needs are OK, as long as all sides are free to decide what others' needs they can fulfill. If I state my needs to Y, and at the same time Y states their needs to me, the control issues are balanced. Neither of us becomes a supplicant or burden to the other. Likewise in situations involving three or more people...
So, aside from trying to make nice and avoid conflicts, there is a darker side to my reluctance to ask unilaterally, or immediately complain or interrupt others -- my aversion to yielding any control over my actions, or general discomfort with others having any usable leverage over me.
therealjae and clairaide...One of my guiding social principles is "Avoid actions which incur current or future obligations or debts, unless balanced by similar on the other side." I am fiercely control-averse. In the workplace, I am either a lone researcher, or a project leader. With the lightest of supervision, or none. The prospect of being anyone's deputy or assistant immediately squicks me. I'd rather sit outside, lurk in the forest and wait for an opportunity to challenge for a leadership role than accept a "beta" role in some effort. I want to hold the reins, at least as far as my own efforts go. Freedom of action.
But social obligations and debts constrain freedom of action. If I owe someone a favor which they can call in to meet some need of theirs, then I lose some control over my future actions. Potentially. Or risk unethical behavior (dishonoring my obligations). Unless the other person or group already owes me similarly, and the debts cancel.
If I unilaterally inconvenience or adversely affect a person or group, I owe them recompence, and lose another tidbit of control. They will then have a hold over me in the future, whether strong or tenuous. Much of my avoid-bothering-others behavior is *not* driven by some oh-I'm-so-unworthy complex on my part, it is driven by "I don't trust you enough to give you any kind of hold over me." Or even "I'm not sure I whether I will want to associate with [person or group] in the future, so I'm not going to incur any favors-owed to them." Done self-deprecatingly, and with a smile (to avoid disturbing the other party, and thereby defeating my own intentions). The underlying arrogance on my part is buried several layers down.
If I do think I might want to associate with some person or group in the future, I'm likely to try to build up a "positive ledger" of favors-done or assistance rendered or backs-rubbed or etc... so I can relax and enjoy their company in the future, without worrying that I'm ceding them any future control over my actions. If I then do a favor for someone, it will be because I like that person and choose to help, not because I'm in their debt (social or otherwise). Maintaining the freedom to choose is vitally important to me.
So much of the turn-the-other-cheek, don't complain in public, and subverting my own needs in social spaces is motivated thusly -- by trying to make everything smoother and happier, true, but also my my rigorous avoidance of incurring favors or obligations to others, with the corresponding loss of future independence.
Conversely, if I'm willing to ask someone for a favor, or accept one offered, that person is actually (unbeknownst to them) being paid a high compliment (in my own twisted way). Likewise if I volunteer to do favors for a given individual or group -- it often indicates a receptivity on my part to longer-term association or friendship.
But then there's the issue of *asking*, of stating my personal needs to someone in the hope that some subset will be met. I see asking as functionally equivalent to begging. Loss of control... I'm making myself vulnerable, and I can't control the outcome. I may as well be prostrating myself at someone's feet if I ask someone if they would go to lunch with me, or rub my back. Or dance. Once I ask for something, the recipient can twist me around their proverbial little finger, leave me dangling, and I'm powerless. And the outcomes are all bad, in some way -- if rejected, I'm hurt. But if the request is granted, now I have incurred a new obligation-debt which will give that person leverage over me in the future.
So in my view, unilaterally asking to have one of my needs met results in either rejection, or some loss of future independence... so I don't do it very often. And then only with those that I explicitly trust to not abuse the leverage in the future, and/or with whom I have comparable cancelling favors-owed... unless I'm in over-my-head in a situation or otherwise desperate.
But multilateral statements of needs are OK, as long as all sides are free to decide what others' needs they can fulfill. If I state my needs to Y, and at the same time Y states their needs to me, the control issues are balanced. Neither of us becomes a supplicant or burden to the other. Likewise in situations involving three or more people...
So, aside from trying to make nice and avoid conflicts, there is a darker side to my reluctance to ask unilaterally, or immediately complain or interrupt others -- my aversion to yielding any control over my actions, or general discomfort with others having any usable leverage over me.
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no subject
Date: 2002-11-21 11:31 am (UTC)I'm NOT with you on your theory of favours and obligations, but I have a partner who is, so I know what that's like to deal with. Over the years I've tried to show him that not everybody thinks the way he does about this, so (for example) if I ask him for a favour, I don't see myself as owing him anything in return, and if he asks me for a favour, I don't see him as owing me anything in return (unless I explicitly state that at the time). Things have gotten better in this respect over the years, I think.
My question for *you*, though, is ... what now? You post all this great self-analysis, and you do it quite often, but as I mentioned in your last entry along these lines, I never have a sense of whether you're going to *do* anything about the problems some of these things cause you. Some of these characteristics are quite obviously things that cause you and others around you a great deal of stress. Are you going to take steps to change them?
-J
no subject
Date: 2002-11-21 11:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2002-11-23 05:40 pm (UTC)Hm... generally, I prefer working as peers. But I can live with hierarchies... as long as I'm not in a subservient role. I'd (strongly) rather be in charge.
if I ask him for a favour, I don't see myself as owing him anything in return, and if he asks me for a favour, I don't see him as owing me anything in return
When I'm with folks who follow that approach, I tend to use more of a don't ask-don't volunteer tack, apart from how I interact with the rest of the world. Otherwise, it would be too easy to exploit their goodwill...
Are you going to take steps to change them?
The problems seem to stem from a lack of communication, brought on by my unwillingness to cede control by asking for things or inconveniencing others. So I need to find ways to communicate my needs without giving others leverage... simply waiting for them to discover and address my needs may avoid obligating me, but rarely works smoothly.
Maybe exploring reciprocality... before an event, stating my expectations and needs, while other(s) do likewise. With the understanding that none of us are required to meet any of the others' needs, going in.
no subject
Date: 2002-11-23 07:22 pm (UTC)Yeah, I think that sort of thing might work really well for you. I'd love to hear about what happened if you tried it!
-J
no subject
Date: 2002-11-24 08:42 am (UTC)Me too! ;)