Brian's darker side

[jay]

Amongst various discussions of "when/if to ask for something" "when/if to complain when hurt or uncomfortable", or "when/if to approach individuals or groups in social settings," two entries ago is another, untouched onion-layer. Although sensed somehow by therealjae and clairaide...

One of my guiding social principles is "Avoid actions which incur current or future obligations or debts, unless balanced by similar on the other side." I am fiercely control-averse. In the workplace, I am either a lone researcher, or a project leader. With the lightest of supervision, or none. The prospect of being anyone's deputy or assistant immediately squicks me. I'd rather sit outside, lurk in the forest and wait for an opportunity to challenge for a leadership role than accept a "beta" role in some effort. I want to hold the reins, at least as far as my own efforts go. Freedom of action.

But social obligations and debts constrain freedom of action. If I owe someone a favor which they can call in to meet some need of theirs, then I lose some control over my future actions. Potentially. Or risk unethical behavior (dishonoring my obligations). Unless the other person or group already owes me similarly, and the debts cancel.

If I unilaterally inconvenience or adversely affect a person or group, I owe them recompence, and lose another tidbit of control. They will then have a hold over me in the future, whether strong or tenuous. Much of my avoid-bothering-others behavior is *not* driven by some oh-I'm-so-unworthy complex on my part, it is driven by "I don't trust you enough to give you any kind of hold over me." Or even "I'm not sure I whether I will want to associate with [person or group] in the future, so I'm not going to incur any favors-owed to them." Done self-deprecatingly, and with a smile (to avoid disturbing the other party, and thereby defeating my own intentions). The underlying arrogance on my part is buried several layers down.

If I do think I might want to associate with some person or group in the future, I'm likely to try to build up a "positive ledger" of favors-done or assistance rendered or backs-rubbed or etc... so I can relax and enjoy their company in the future, without worrying that I'm ceding them any future control over my actions. If I then do a favor for someone, it will be because I like that person and choose to help, not because I'm in their debt (social or otherwise). Maintaining the freedom to choose is vitally important to me.

So much of the turn-the-other-cheek, don't complain in public, and subverting my own needs in social spaces is motivated thusly -- by trying to make everything smoother and happier, true, but also my my rigorous avoidance of incurring favors or obligations to others, with the corresponding loss of future independence.

Conversely, if I'm willing to ask someone for a favor, or accept one offered, that person is actually (unbeknownst to them) being paid a high compliment (in my own twisted way). Likewise if I volunteer to do favors for a given individual or group -- it often indicates a receptivity on my part to longer-term association or friendship.

But then there's the issue of *asking*, of stating my personal needs to someone in the hope that some subset will be met. I see asking as functionally equivalent to begging. Loss of control... I'm making myself vulnerable, and I can't control the outcome. I may as well be prostrating myself at someone's feet if I ask someone if they would go to lunch with me, or rub my back. Or dance. Once I ask for something, the recipient can twist me around their proverbial little finger, leave me dangling, and I'm powerless. And the outcomes are all bad, in some way -- if rejected, I'm hurt. But if the request is granted, now I have incurred a new obligation-debt which will give that person leverage over me in the future.

So in my view, unilaterally asking to have one of my needs met results in either rejection, or some loss of future independence... so I don't do it very often. And then only with those that I explicitly trust to not abuse the leverage in the future, and/or with whom I have comparable cancelling favors-owed... unless I'm in over-my-head in a situation or otherwise desperate.

But multilateral statements of needs are OK, as long as all sides are free to decide what others' needs they can fulfill. If I state my needs to Y, and at the same time Y states their needs to me, the control issues are balanced. Neither of us becomes a supplicant or burden to the other. Likewise in situations involving three or more people...

So, aside from trying to make nice and avoid conflicts, there is a darker side to my reluctance to ask unilaterally, or immediately complain or interrupt others -- my aversion to yielding any control over my actions, or general discomfort with others having any usable leverage over me.

Comments

[firecat]

That's really interesting. Thanks for posting it.

Just one question:

Much of my avoid-bothering-others behavior is [...] driven by "I don't trust you enough to give you any kind of hold over me."

Why do you believe that interacting with someone, in many cases, gives zir a hold over you? Is it that you feel beholden inside, or that you grew up with a cultural value that says all interactions carry obligations, or something else?

I also have a feeling of obligation when I interact with people in relatively innocuous ways, but I think most people don't share this feeling and so I've come to think that I am "over-obligating myself" and trying to figure out how to change my feelings so that I can enjoy more kinds of interactions without feeling burdened.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that all interactions give others a hold over me -- only when I unilaterally ask for something personal, or else when my interaction requires some inconvenience to the other person(s)... stopping conversation momentarily, or interrupting a shared activity ... in order to include me. Or my presence discomfits someone that is already there.

It isn't that I feel burdened, myself... more than I worry about burdening others, thereby incurring obligation and losing some measure of future control over my actions.

[firecat]

I can grok why unilaterally asking for something leads you to feel obligated. I also grok why burdening someone leads you to feel obligated.

What I don't grok is why you think of temporarily interrupting a conversation as burdening someone.

I feel uncomfortable temporarily interrupting a conversation, but not because I feel that it's burdening. I think it's too small of a thing to count as a burden.

(I'm assuming a public conversation here.)

If you feel like commenting on why it counts as a burden for you, I'd be interested.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

It's a matter of degree... I think that that is large enough to count as a burden. A tenuous one, if it happened once, but still significant to me.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

But then there's the issue of *asking*, of stating my personal needs to someone in the hope that some subset will be met. I see asking as functionally equivalent to begging.

[Warning: the following started off "me, too" and ended up "me me me"]

Yeah. I have struggled with this, too. My dad abandoned our family when I was 13 or so, and after asking for things from him and not getting them (and feeling really shitty for having exposed my need to him and been slapped down), I stopped asking. By extension, I stopped asking *anyone* for *anything*. It felt really good to be so independent (as soon as I could work, I did; as soon as I could pay my mom rent, I did, etc.), but I had to handle a lot of stuff alone that would've been much easier and less traumatic with help.

What has helped me with this (besides some therapy and effort) was realizing on a gut level that people (including me) who offer help to me, or who will give it if I ask, *dig it*. They (I) really get a kick out of being useful/helpful/important, and are not looking to oblige anyone in return. At least I find that to be generally true of folks of good will. This past year, I've asked for some pretty big help, financial and otherwise, and been cringingly awkward and nervous about it, but the obvious joy of others in jumping to my rescue has been heartwarming and healing. Not that I still wouldn't usually prefer to do it All By Myself (ooh, earworm), but there's a certain zen to exposing my need and allowing others to fulfill their own desire to contribute positively to the life of another creature.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Um...

What she said. I couldn't have said it any better, although my abandonment issues come from other places.

(Serene, check your italic tags, you missed an end one somewhere...)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

If I'm in an explicit power-play situation or planned scene -- where I have prior knowledge that, say, the other party enjoys meeting my every need or desire, at least in a role-playing sense -- then that would work. I could state my needs, and the other party gets a kick out of being useful/helpful/important to me, both walk away afterwards feeling happy and owing no future favors to each other.

But I can't assume that random others will get a kick out of helping me. And getting help otherwise means being a net burden and a liability to others, with constraints on my future behavior...

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

I'm very much with you on the not wanting hierarchies. One of my weaknesses as a teacher and as a graduate supervisor, in fact, is that I don't like being anyone's boss. I'd rather be subservient than in charge if it comes down to either one or the other, but most of all, I'd prefer to only exist in groups where everybody's equal. Not terribly possible in the real world, I realize. ;-)

I'm NOT with you on your theory of favours and obligations, but I have a partner who is, so I know what that's like to deal with. Over the years I've tried to show him that not everybody thinks the way he does about this, so (for example) if I ask him for a favour, I don't see myself as owing him anything in return, and if he asks me for a favour, I don't see him as owing me anything in return (unless I explicitly state that at the time). Things have gotten better in this respect over the years, I think.

My question for *you*, though, is ... what now? You post all this great self-analysis, and you do it quite often, but as I mentioned in your last entry along these lines, I never have a sense of whether you're going to *do* anything about the problems some of these things cause you. Some of these characteristics are quite obviously things that cause you and others around you a great deal of stress. Are you going to take steps to change them?

-J

[patgreene.livejournal.com]

I am waiting with bated breath for the answer to this. Thank you for asking, therealjae -- I would have liked to asked it, but for various reasons, can't.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I'm very much with you on the not wanting hierarchies.

Hm... generally, I prefer working as peers. But I can live with hierarchies... as long as I'm not in a subservient role. I'd (strongly) rather be in charge.

if I ask him for a favour, I don't see myself as owing him anything in return, and if he asks me for a favour, I don't see him as owing me anything in return

When I'm with folks who follow that approach, I tend to use more of a don't ask-don't volunteer tack, apart from how I interact with the rest of the world. Otherwise, it would be too easy to exploit their goodwill...

Are you going to take steps to change them?

The problems seem to stem from a lack of communication, brought on by my unwillingness to cede control by asking for things or inconveniencing others. So I need to find ways to communicate my needs without giving others leverage... simply waiting for them to discover and address my needs may avoid obligating me, but rarely works smoothly.

Maybe exploring reciprocality... before an event, stating my expectations and needs, while other(s) do likewise. With the understanding that none of us are required to meet any of the others' needs, going in.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Maybe exploring reciprocality... before an event, stating my expectations and needs, while other(s) do likewise. With the understanding that none of us are required to meet any of the others' needs, going in.

Yeah, I think that sort of thing might work really well for you. I'd love to hear about what happened if you tried it!

-J

[geekchick]

I'd love to hear about what happened if you tried it!

Me too! ;)

[technomom]

I have a very difficult time expressing any need. I've recently admitted that even though I know it's stupid to expect someone to read my mind and "just know" what I need, there's a part of me that hates to ask - for anything. And feels that if I'm *really* loved, then I shouldn't have to ask.

I'm learning to change that. sambear needs me to say "Please turn off the computer and come cuddle with me" or we have problems. I need me to say it too, honestly :-)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

As far as I'm concerned, the optimal situation gets my needs met without my asking. But that's hard to manage... conversely, after 22 years, I still have to grit my teeth to ask patgreene for anything more significant that picking up the dry-cleaning.

[purpletigron.livejournal.com]

The prospect of being anyone's deputy or assistant immediately squicks me.

Whereas, some of my deep darker aspects are revealed in the fact that I feel like a natural right-hand woman. I get into terrible trouble for being bossy, but in fact, I prefer to be the trusted lieutenant whose advice and thoughts are always seriously considered. Of course, there's an inconsistency, because I will not accept anyone taking an action which seems to me very likely to lead to significant harm or adverse affects. Or maybe, that's a necessary break in hierarchy. Oh, but I don't like hierarchy overall - I'd prefer there to be one other person whom we all trust to be the leader when a single leader is absolutely necessary, and everyone to be operating on equal terms for the rest of the time.

I'm not sure that I'm as clear about this as you seem to be about your feelings!

Conversely, if I'm willing to ask someone for a favor, or accept one offered, that person is actually (unbeknownst to them) being paid a high compliment (in my own twisted way). Likewise if I volunteer to do favors for a given individual or group -- it often indicates a receptivity on my part to longer-term association or friendship.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Whereas, some of my deep darker aspects are revealed in the fact that I feel like a natural right-hand woman. I get into terrible trouble for being bossy, but in fact, I prefer to be the trusted lieutenant whose advice and thoughts are always seriously considered. Of course, there's an inconsistency, because I will not accept anyone taking an action which seems to me very likely to lead to significant harm or adverse affects.

All that. Just that. You described exactly how I am about this. I'm happiest with my supervisor-graduate student relationships that are like that (where they don't rely on me to make their decisions, but they consider everything I say very carefully before making them themselves), and it's the role I feel I can play in the political arena, too.

I don't think this is a bad thing, really -- the bad part is just how much I *suck* at any other kind of role. If I'm actually the one in charge, who has to take responsibility in name, too, I'm so uncomfortable that I never get accustomed to it no matter how long it takes. If I'm part of a committee with someone else in charge, or in a subservient role in a duo, I can get lazy and not pull my weight. The only other power arrangement I'm happy with is one of complete equality (as in my relationship with my academic co-author).

I'm okay with my preferences in this respect, but sometimes you have to be in situations that run counter to them. I do wish they didn't handicap me so much as to what I can do in my job, in my life, in the world.

-J

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

But... you seemed to do such a good job of chairing APC6...

And I've always thought that you were the dominant, decisive member of your household triad.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

I *did* do a good job of chairing AP6, and I think the main reason for that was that I *wasn't* in charge. I delegated almost every responsibility. By the time the con itself rolled around, I could just have a good time. I think that's the way con chairing should be. But you can't do everything that way.

As for life in my household ... I can be decisive if I need to be, and if it takes being dominant to get things done, I'll do it with gritted teeth. But it's not my preferred role. I'm happiest when tasks are divided up equally, and everybody knows what they're supposed to do, and everybody can be trusted to get those things done.

-J

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I get into terrible trouble for being bossy

Really? I've only seen you in person at APC6, but you didn't seem bossy then. Lively, energetic, engaging, yes.

Rather than a break, perhaps it reflects staunchly-held principles? I wouldn't accept such an action from someone, either... but part of that for me would be simple resistance-to-orders, in addition to objection to the action's own adverse effects.

And I prefer non-hierarchical organizations, likewise... but if someone else is then picked as the leader, I'm likely to reflexively undermine and subvert their authority, unless/until they either drive me away or convince me that they have superior qualifications.

[runeshower.livejournal.com]

Does this mean that you'll never ask me to lunch?

And think about this: if therefore I must ask *you* to lunch, I'm the one incurring the risk of rejection. That in itself is doing you a favor, sparing you the need to take that risk yourself. I should think by your philosophy that would put you in my debt. Even if you say no to the offer. Then what?

Thus, the success of your philosophy depends on the other person NOT holding the same philosophy. Sounds like a doomed proposition to me. Friendship is about give AND take, without either side keeping count of who has done more.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I disagree, of course. This is an interesting conflict between avoiding future obligations (if you always ask and are bothered, I incur an increasing obligation) and not losing control in the present (by asking for something personal). In practice, after a couple of lunches, we'd probably settle into alternating the invitations (to balance the control-issues temporally) or else I'd try to offset the favor owed to you with a different, cancelling favor (say, always picking up the check).