Day at home

[jay]

Strep hasn't knocked me down -- no fever or other symptoms -- but I felt not-right this morning, enough that I stayed home from work to try to pre-empt the bug. A telecon including hopeforyou (who was also offsite at her place) went well. Later, bad news about the air traffic project I presented in DC last week... the local NASA management group that has been putting together a new program for FY05, and using us as its poster-child for marketing purposes, is now going to reduce our part of the budget to ten percent of the total while warping our purpose into being basically just computing infrastructure support for things in which they're more interested.

Otherwise, I fixed a door closer and a balky lock, rested, and took Kevin to the park and tried to throw toy boomerangs with him. We were laughable. That's perfectly OK. ;-)

This evening, I talked with patgreene, including a lively discussion regarding whether women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake, or just went along with it in order to gain things that they valued more (like cuddling, or attention, or building emotional ties). There was no verdict... maybe more in a future post.

Comments

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(head explodes) ow.

I haven't heard those sentiments expressed that way before, from a woman... that's closer to what I'd expect most males to say! Given that and the other feedback here, it may be time to re-evaluate my external models.
less intimate than kissing
Again, wow... even transposed into my "male" behavioral model, that would seem unusual. Granted, my filters are such that sex is a Big Deal, slowly and carefully approached over months even in new relationships (to avoid being too pushy on my part)...

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

my filters are such that sex is a Big Deal, slowly and carefully approached over months even in new relationships (to avoid being too pushy on my part)...

What does "too pushy" look like? What would happen if you were too pushy? And whose voice is it warning you against the power of your own sexual desire? [/therapist mode]

No need to answer those here. But it's a useful set of questions.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Too pushy? Whatever makes the person I'm courting uncomfortable and defensive, or feel like I'm more interested in what's between their legs than in them as a person.

What would happen if I were too pushy? I've never tested that boundary, but I'd expect the other person to (figuratively) run screaming for the exit. Bail out. Write me off as just another selfish male jerk.

Which means that the more interested or attracted I am to someone, the greater the potential loss if I move too quickly. So ironically, the more smitten I am, the more tentative I am about sex with that person, historically. Until they're firmly in a capital-R Relationship with me, and hence aren't likely to run away if I express any physical attraction to them.

[geekchick]

Until they're firmly in a capital-R Relationship with me, and hence aren't likely to run away if I express any physical attraction to them.

Oh? =)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

January to late May... May to the fall... it was at least four months after I said "I love you" for the first time ;-).

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I see several different issues here.

One is your reluctance to push someone to have sex they don't want, and that is admirable. Nothing more obnoxious than a person who won't take No for an answer.

However, the fear of rejection (by asking for sex too early) when you're getting involved with someone could be counterproductive, Imagine that you're falling in love with a new person who has occasional doubts about their sexual attractiveness (ie, someone belonging to the human race). Your approach may put off some potential partners (especially those who are more sexually aggressive) because they read your deliberate slowness as rejection ("I must not be smart/pretty/sexy enough for him") or lack of interest. Or they just can't handle the suspense -- if you're involved with someone who isn't touching you and isn't responding to your sexual signals and/or advances, it's easy to feel as though you're being judged, and many people don't want to wait six months for someone else's verdict.

(Of course, I don't know how you handle this. Do you openly discuss the slowness of your sexual strategy? What do you do when a woman you're becoming involved with makes a move on you, even a small subtle one? Do you ignore it or use the opportunity to share your feelings? Do you not notice at all?)

Incidentally, Michele and I came close to both being too polite to push the issue. We'd been talking online and I knew I was in love with her, but she'd never been with a woman before, and hadn't even had an outside relationship in 12 or 15 years. I was her hostess and I refused to be pushy. And I thought I had given her an unmistakable sexual invitation earlier, but her answer hadn't been clear. Luckily we found a way around all that.

Then there is the reiterated idea that women will put up with sex for the sake of other things. And of course there are women who do that, just as there are men who go along with their partner's desires. In moderation, I don't see a problem with this. Give-and-take is reasonable. Making a sacrifice and then using it to manipulate your partner is not.

Probably most people at some point in a relationship have done something they didn't feel like doing, in order to get something else. This doesn't have to be the classic golddigger/hotwalker having sex for money while secretly despising their older partner. It could be something as simple as getting out of bed early to take care of the kids so your partner can sleep late, with the hope that this will make for a more pleasant weekend.

Then there is the associated idea that in asking for sex, you're imposing on your partner. That she has made some kind of sacrifice to give you pleasure. And that is where I start having a real problem. Most women aren't as aggressive about sex as I am, true, but most women *do* enjoy it. By acting as though she's just doing it for you, you are, in effect, denying that she has her own normal needs, (Do you see that? Or am I totally off-base?)

Here's where the idea becomes pure speculation. None of this may fit what you think and feel and do, so take it all with several tons of rock salt.

You might also in a weird way be aggrandizing yourself -- if sex is something she's doing just for your sake, then you must be pretty special, right? It also keeps your partner up on a pedestal. She's not one of those low, vulgar women who fucks just because it feels good. She's special. Different. Pure. There's an underlying hint of anti-sex in this idea that bothers me. Again, it may or may not be what you think and feel -- but it's worth looking at.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I don't think my slow-and-careful approach has put off any potential partners... or if so, their interest was so fleeting and hidden that I was unaware of it. Sometimes I'll observe signals or flirtations cast by others toward other people, but it hasn't been a how-to-react problem personally. Frankly, although I concede that there are more-aggressive women out there (some of whom have spoken up here ;), women with that orientation haven't historically been interested in me, per se. At least not in *that* way. Not to whine or take some kind of omega-wolf tack here -- I haven't been actively looking, either.

What do you do when a woman you're becoming involved with makes a move on you?

If it's small or subtle, I'm probably oblivious to it, not expecting anything of the sort. If it's overt and unambiguous, I've responded in-kind (since I then know that she won't be offended or put on the defensive). Example: Cathy and I had been flirting online for a couple of months before we met in person in May 2002, and I was pretty crushed-out by the time we met face-to-face. And in-person chemistry was there. Even so, if she hadn't stopped and suddenly kissed me then on the sidewalk on the way back from Da Domenico's, it would have probably taken two more visits (August) before I dared to kiss her unprompted.

By acting as though she's just doing it for you, you are, in effect, denying that she has her own normal needs

Generally my partners seem to enjoy themselves, once "warmed-up"... but what defines "normal needs"? Left to their own, I'd guess that none of my (past or current) partners would be interested in sex more often than once or twice a month. In fairness, there are also various medications and health issues on their side, respectively. But if I make advances more often than that, I'm imposing and inconveniencing them, because then they're going along. They may enjoy the journey, but didn't plan it themselves.

if sex is something she's doing just for your sake, then you must be pretty special

Heh. Hardly... relationships have their own balance of give and take. I try to give them what they want in other areas (emotional support, help with kids, cuddling, validation, interesting conversation) to balance their favors done for me. I don't think I'm inherently worth someone else's sacrifice. I worry about taking advantage of my partners as things stand, and try to find make-ups or balance.

not one of those low, vulgar women who fucks just because it feels good
Hmm... I'm reluctant to assign value judgements (low or high) to sexual enjoyment by either/any gender. If it feels good, that's better IMO than if it doesn't. Now the thread is full-circle, in the sense that the original discussion with patgreene was whether women ever had sex just because it felt good, or in essence used sex primarily as a means to gaining other goods.

[bdot.livejournal.com]

by what you have said before, both in your original post and in replies to comments given, i think you underestimate yourself...and women in general.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmm... I don't see it as a value estimation (what's over, or under?) but a different estimation of motivations.

Sex and Kissing

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Many sex workers will do almost anything for/with a client except kiss -- that's intimate, saved for lovers. One of my spice also has that feeling that sex is less intimate than kissing -- I haven't asked the others, but I'll have to.

For me, sex is more intimate than kissing, but I don't neck with someone that I wouldn't fuck. Even when I was much younger and willing to have casual sex, that was true.

Maybe it is time to have a filter change -- and why change your oil and get a lube job too? (OK, being silly here. But it's as important to check your assumptions regularly as your car.)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

that's intimate, saved for lovers

Thanks for that (eye-opening) contextual tidbit... I'd never heard of that. But I only know one person that's a former sexworker, and I'm not close enough to her to have had that kind of discussion.

I don't neck with someone that I wouldn't fuck
Conversely, I don't assume that willingness to neck equals willingness to go further...

change your oil and get a lube job too
(giggle) cute.