Day at home

[jay]

Strep hasn't knocked me down -- no fever or other symptoms -- but I felt not-right this morning, enough that I stayed home from work to try to pre-empt the bug. A telecon including hopeforyou (who was also offsite at her place) went well. Later, bad news about the air traffic project I presented in DC last week... the local NASA management group that has been putting together a new program for FY05, and using us as its poster-child for marketing purposes, is now going to reduce our part of the budget to ten percent of the total while warping our purpose into being basically just computing infrastructure support for things in which they're more interested.

Otherwise, I fixed a door closer and a balky lock, rested, and took Kevin to the park and tried to throw toy boomerangs with him. We were laughable. That's perfectly OK. ;-)

This evening, I talked with patgreene, including a lively discussion regarding whether women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake, or just went along with it in order to gain things that they valued more (like cuddling, or attention, or building emotional ties). There was no verdict... maybe more in a future post.

Comments

[brooksmoses]

FWIW, I know strep can be contagous but asymptomatic -- there was one winter when my brother and I were much much younger, and we kept getting strep and going to the doctor. Eventually, our doctor, being a very wise and good doctor, decided to give my parents strep tests as well, even though they weren't showing symptoms. They did in fact have it, though, and so he gave all of us medication for it and that time it didn't come back.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks... I'll call my doctor's office and ask for their advice, rather than just ignore it.

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

a lively discussion regarding whether women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake, or just went along with it in order to gain things that they valued more (like cuddling, or attention, or building emotional ties).

Any medievalist can tell you that in those days, women's superior and voracious sex drive was widely recognized.

I can't speak of women in the abstract. But the women I know are horny.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Okay... I've met women who got aroused, but generally only after some time/effort was invested by a third party. Left to themselves, they could take-it-or-leave-it... "it's fun, but not important. I can live without it -- like living without chocolate-chip brownies" was a quote from last night.

[runeshower.livejournal.com]

And what was the verdict?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

No verdict, per se... it was a friendly, slightly-humorous chat.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I can't tell you about all women, but I certainly can tell you about me.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(nods) the dangers of over-generalization... I would be glad to listen to your opinion. Presumably off-line...

[archway.livejournal.com]

The more interesting question is what perks of having sex men value. I would think direct confirmation of desirability, increased self esteem, and tactile reassurance of personal status with the chosen partner would come into play.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Why is that the more interesting question?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Those things are all valid, IMO... but for me, there's also an underlying physical drive, like hunger. I've watched other men pursue women in social settings who were (I've later found) motivated by a need for self-validation or confirmation of desirability... sometimes leaving their given partner for another one, once they had collected their validation ticket-punch.

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

Nice way of thinking about the issue. I bet there are plenty of times guys want connection but only recognize or will admit the desire for sex.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

This woman wants sex for its own sake (those other things are acheivable without sex). Wants it, like, a *lot*. </TMI>

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(raised eyebrow) that's interesting... I wouldn't have guessed, based just upon personal observations. So presumably the same could be true of others... maybe women just hide their interest better? Since so much energy is spent deflecting unwanted suitors, actual interest may be more subtle.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

discussion regarding whether women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake, or just went along with it in order to gain things that they valued more

Embrace the power of 'and' Brian. I often "go along with it" (though for us, it's more of a conscious choice and gift--speaking Akien's love language, which is touch). But there ARE times when I just want sex for sex (though Akien undoubtedly feels that's not often enough!).

Sorry to hear about the research politics. :^P

And it also sounds like it's a good thing we skipped lunch, if you came down with anything that might be "proto-strep." Well, here's best wishes for a speedy "recovery" (or near-miss--whichever!).

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks, and I agree (much as I hate missing the opportunity, which may be rare this month) that skipping Monday lunch was a good idea. I wouldn't want to expose anyone... and you have enough household issues right now! Sigh...

How does Akien know when you want sex for its own sake? Or does he assume that you're still "going along" even when you're actually turned-on?

I always thank my own partners afterwards, because I figure that they've sacrificed or been inconvenienced on my behalf -- given me a gift.

[archway.livejournal.com]

There is also a myriad of other factors here, not the least of which is time with the selected partner. IMO, new lovers tend to have sex for sex. It is simply a "can't keep their hands off each other" sort of thing. Then it evolves into more for good or for ill. (BTW, aside from personal observation, I cannot support this...~S~)

The dynamics of long term lovers is much more interesting to me.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmm... if I go to personal observation, even in the midst of new relationship energy (NRE) my own partners and I haven't gone through the "can't keep hands off" stage, so that's not familiar. I see other people reflecting something like that in their new relationships, but saw it as part of attempts to mutually please each other while building up a new relationship.

[bdot.livejournal.com]

women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake

i love sex. in my marriages, there were some problems with intimacy and sex, but i think that since then, i have discovered how much i really enjoy the sexual act.

i recently broke up with the only person that i have been with that actually approached the same level of libido that i have. unfortunately, that means i have been very undersexed! sex, to me, is actually less intimate than kissing and i have several "playmates" that i actually don't kiss. i just love sex!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(head explodes) ow.

I haven't heard those sentiments expressed that way before, from a woman... that's closer to what I'd expect most males to say! Given that and the other feedback here, it may be time to re-evaluate my external models.
less intimate than kissing
Again, wow... even transposed into my "male" behavioral model, that would seem unusual. Granted, my filters are such that sex is a Big Deal, slowly and carefully approached over months even in new relationships (to avoid being too pushy on my part)...

[oceansedge.livejournal.com]

whether women actually ever wanted sex for its own sake, or just went along with it in order to gain things that they valued more (like cuddling, or attention, or building emotional ties).
Hurmmmm.... I think perhaps the thing here is not that women don't want sex for its own sake. Myself I've never met a healthy adult woman who didn't enjoy / want sex. I think the difference is in perhaps how that desire manifests itself. I once had a friend comment that its pretty obvious when a guy is cruising a woman he finds attractive, but women are a lot more subtle about it. And YES we do it... I had an english professor once.. *whew*... that was a great class. The other thing is that socially, while a woman may find a man attractive, and she may very well have the desire, women are still less likely (although by no means always), to have sex just for sex's sake. There's a subtle difference here, more men than women, see sex as an end onto itself, and thus more often would say, have intimate relations with a woman they didn't even like, solely for the purpose of having sex. More often than men and again these are general trends, not carved in stone rules, women want or need some emotional attachment and involvement to act on the physical desire we're ALL born with. (its a genetic survival of the species thing). Thus perhaps the perception that women use sex to get to the other stuff, I don't think so. She wants the SEX and the OTHER STUFF both.
I think the person who mentioned the visuals thing was also on to something here. Men do tend to be more stimulated visually, so an attractive woman starts the hormones flowing, women responding to more verbal and tactile stimuli have the other stuff that gets their motors running.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

women are a lot more subtle about it. And YES we do it

Hmmm. I accept that it happens... and I'd probably not notice if a given woman were cruising a given person in my vicinity, given the subtlety. Maybe even just mistake it for ordinary friendliness.

she may very well have the desire, women are still less likely (although by no means always), to have sex just for sex's sake

I think that that's what I've noticed, over the years. Being attracted is different, I think, from feeling compelled to act on the attraction. My read has been that women generally see sex as a pleasant side effect of emotional attachment and involvement, while men are more likely to see them inverted, relatively-speaking. With exceptions on both sides, granted.

I never...

[paraquat.livejournal.com]

..wqilling or conciously just go along with it. I have a rather high libido for a girl and I almsot always want it just for it's self, so there ;-p

I never...

[paraquat.livejournal.com]

..willing or consciously just go along with it. I have a rather high libido for a girl and I almost always want sex just for it's own sake, so there ;-p

Re: I never...

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

So your partners owe you no gratitude or thanks, since you got as much out of it as they did? ;-)

[trinker.livejournal.com]

People vary. I've had a discussion recently with someone who takes a long time to decide that zie's physically attracted to someone, at least in a "willing to do something about it" sense. At that point, zie is likely to do quite a bit to make sure there's followthrough.

Someone else I've talked to is more on the "see it, intrigued" end, and is likely to be happy with the frisson without followthrough.

Me...I went through a period where I didn't have much libido...sort of intellectually there, but no bodyhunger. Now...yeah, I want it for its own sake, as well as an affirmation of bonds.

I don't think this is a male/female *inherent* thing. It's my observation that people manifest libido differently, and that it's more socially acceptable for men to be *either* sex-hungry or ascetic, but women are assumed to be "doing it to get the affection", and a woman who does otherwise is often vilified as wanton and dangerous.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I want it for its own sake, as well as an affirmation of bonds.

Is there any difference in your choice of partners for either? FWP vs. ongoing partners, say?

I'm often physically attracted myself to various individuals, sometimes intensely, but honoring that bodyhunger is just not possible or sensible for me.

a woman who does otherwise is often vilified as wanton and dangerous.
I don't think that such a woman is dangerous, only unusual. ;-)