Jekyll/Hyde
Aug. 18th, 2003 12:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayA few realizations, today, largely unrelated.
For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).
At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.
Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.
Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile).patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-).
The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.
Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).
Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...
EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).
For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).
At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.
Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.
Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile).
patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-). The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.
Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).
Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...
EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 11:47 am (UTC)Agreed, it sounds like there clearly was a negotiation. I was more concerned with the before-and-after parts, and how one wouldn't take it personally absent a discussion afterwards.
[list of possible reasons for not interacting in some context]
Maybe it reflects *my* lack of boundaries (smile), but in all of those (except missing the cue/distraction, which I can't help) I will force myself to interact, rather than risk having the other person feel that I'm snubbing them. I'll put on a brave face and try to struggle through, even if I feel uncomfortable or physically ill.
is exactly as arrogant as assuming that everybody wants you
Negatively-arrogant? I can't imagine assuming that everybody wants me (yeah, right! LOL), but the converse seems reasonable.
all boundaries that don't match yours not "well-defined", or just this one?
Bad choice of terms on my part. If someone is open to initial kissing by strangers, then from my viewpoint potentially-anything-goes with that person, and it is hard to guess appropriate behavior around them. Public handshakes or A-frame hugs are socially supported in the mainstream, and so are reasonably-safe defaults.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 02:01 pm (UTC)Excessively self-centered, in any case. It's still an assumption that their motivations for action or inaction contain you as the primary factor. Which, to my mind, completely discounts all other possible factors: their mood, their generic boundary policies, their current dynamics with the other people in their life, and so on.
Bad choice of terms on my part. If someone is open to initial kissing by strangers, then from my viewpoint potentially-anything-goes with that person, and it is hard to guess appropriate behavior around them. Public handshakes or A-frame hugs are socially supported in the mainstream, and so are reasonably-safe defaults.
Yet, from my point of view, this is a really strange argument from someone who is polyamorous, yet admits that they don't kiss people often. It's my perception that 1) kissing a lot of people is socially supported in polyamorous culture and 2) polyamory itself isn't "socially supported in the mainstream". Therefore, given that you deviate from both your broad cultural norm and your alternative cultural norm, it shouldn't be so much of a stretch that other people's boundaries are going to be odd and unpredictable and seemingly arbitrary from your perspective, and so the only sensible thing to do is negotiate about them constantly and not pass any judgments about others' boundary sets being inconsistent with respect to your prior experience.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 03:33 pm (UTC)kissing a lot of people is socially supported in polyamorous culture
Perhaps, but at the same time I've gotten a few "me too"'s in my post last night. So I'm not the only one...
I'm not averse to kissing, per se... it's fun. But I never assume that anyone wants me to kiss them! *that* would seem arrogant, IMO.
only sensible thing to do is negotiate about them constantly
Agreed, again... which comes back to the original question about the need to negotiate others' boundaries explicitly rather than relying on nonverbal hunches.