Jekyll/Hyde

[jay]

A few realizations, today, largely unrelated.

For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).

At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.

Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.

Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile). patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-).

The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.

Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).

Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...

EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).

Comments

jeckle and Hyde moments

[p3aches.livejournal.com]

Many hugs. Sometimes the best comfort for these jeckle and Hyde moments is a long cuddle. I volenteer. T

Re: jeckle and Hyde moments

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(smile) thanks! Although your weekends are pretty full...

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

I am familiar with a lot of these feelings, and for what it's worth, this post strikes me as much less self-pitying than others you've posted about the same topic. I think that's a hopeful sign. Best of luck. (I am not convinced about the gender thing, but that probably doesn't surprise anyone. :-)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(clueless look) okay, thanks for the feedback... I don't understand you, though. I haven't posted about my own feelings this past weekend previously, except perhaps the gripe about nothing happening Saturday night. And haven't talked about a dichotomy myself, although others have wondered about it. Should I cut or filter this post, if it seems like TMI?

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

I'm sorry you're feeling depressed. Once you get your travel schedule figured out, call or e-mail and we can set up a time to have lunch.

I'm certain you were born male, but I'm also clear that you were enculturated as a wimp/geek/bully-target in the south, where the only "acceptable" way to be "a man" is to be a very particular kind of strong. What you were taught (in the social arena) is how to be submissive. Of course, this will look like female behavior to many folks, because almost ALL women in our culture are taught how to be submissive.

The trick for you, I think, will be seeing how you can extend your naturally more forward/aggressive/dominant behavior at work into your social life. Not that you can port it all directly, of course, but there are things that you do successfully there that you could bring to bear to improve things in your social interactions, I think.


...But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.

Certainly if someone said they didn't want your touch, and you continued anyway, that would be boorish. But in fact, I think you don't get to that point most of the time. You wait for their "signal," which you may or may not be capable of reading (many people do not communicate clearly in non-verbal ways). One way in which I think you could rapidly improve your interactions would be to ASK more. "Would you like a shoulder rub?" gives the intended recipient the option of choosing. Looking longingly at their shoulders but not saying anything, OTOH, might seem polite to you, but could seem creepy to them ("why is he staring at my shoulders? Do I have dandruff or something??")

You know, I think you might seriously want to consider looking into some Tantra training. One of the first things they do in many tantra classes is discuss "intentional touch," and do some work on how it feels to touch and be touched with different mindsets. How it feels different to the touchee depending on where your awareness is as you touch them--in your hand, in their hand, in your head, off in la-la-land, etc.

OK, gotta run. Feel free to ask more questions, or just ask me when we next see one another.

[firecat]

I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality.

Fair enough. I also find it useful to do the exercise of whether my mindset does match reality.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Okay, that makes sense. Although both mindsets seem to match reality well -- when I'm in that one. And because they fall neatly into two life compartments (work/career vs. personal) there isn't much conflict between them.

[firecat]

You wrote: Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally

That seems not to match reality - you have sweeties and friends who care about you, right? They are competent and intelligent people, right? Then they have good judgement, right? So they wouldn't care about you if you were unattractive and had no accomplishments and nothing to offer personally, right?

It probably won't change how you feel by itself, but knowing that how you feel isn't matching reality is a useful bit of information, IME.

(I'm coming out of a couple of years' worth of feeling hopelessly unattractive in certain ways, myself. So this is close to me.)

Re: jeckle and Hyde moments

[p3aches.livejournal.com]

Not always. Try giving me a call. especially if a cuddle is whats needed.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

My friends and sweeties are bright, competent, discerning individuals...

So they wouldn't care about you if you were unattractive and had no accomplishments and nothing to offer personally, right?

Ah... but in that frame of mind, I see them as caring in spite of my shortcomings, because I have other qualities they like. Or I'm their token rocket-scientist... not because the shortcomings don't actually exist. So the reality - internal feelings correlation is preserved, or at least rationalized-away.

So this is close to me
(hug) I'm sympathetic.

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

Dawn, you rock!
and have mentioned some of the things I was thinking as I read his entry.
Brian: listen to Dawn -- she is a wise goddess
:)

[firecat]

I understand how that rationalization works, and I also think that any emotion can be rationalized. But I think it's possible to weaken rationalizations that harm you by applying other viewpoints.

My understanding of the real world is that pity and romantic love don't mix. Thus bright, competent, discerning individuals don't romantically love people who are unattractive and have no accomplishments and nothing to offer.

Sure, people love other people despite their shortcomings; everyone has shortcomings. But "no accomplishments and nothing to offer" is way beyond "shortcomings." In order to romantically love someone, you have to respect them, and that means thinking their positive qualities are greater than their shortcomings.

Again, none of this really changes how I feel when I'm in a bad mood, but it does seem to help me when I know that my feelings aren't in line with reality. It's sort of easier to ignore them.

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

ok, what you are talking about here is not being "feminine", but it's about avoiding rejection, and being very sensitive to other people's needs. Maybe TOO sensitive.

As Dawn points out, rather than completely wait for a partner's signal (and I as a female have found that the sort of signal men often need is not nearly as subtle as my usual signals. I usually have to hit them over the head with something heavy, or sharp)
:)
you could politely ask if 'this' or 'that' will be ok. THis is also a gift to that person... becuase it allows her/him to practice their boundary skills. They have to respond by saying "yes, a shoulder rub would be lovely!", or "no, that doesn't feel right at this time, but I'd like to sit and talk with you for awhile...". Giving them the opportunity to practice this skill with somone safe (becuase I think you feel like a safe guy...) is very valuable. Neither means you are being rejected: remember, whether someone wants to be touched is as much about THEM as it is about you, maybe more so.

Another thought I had was role playing: can you mutually agree with one of your existing partners that you will 'play' with the idea of you acting on your own authentic assertive/aggressive tendencies? IF done with parameters, safe words, etc... this could be safe but also allow you WITHIN PRE-ARRANGED BOUNDARIES to exercise a different side of yourself,.. the side you normally keep squelched out of fear.

Any of this helpful?
I don't know you well... but I certianly do empathize with the 'geek' mindset. I'm one too, ya know.
:)

[trinker.livejournal.com]

I think I see what Serene saw, as well.

Good things to mull over, looks like.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(grin) she certainly rocks, and I'd probably try to worship her if she'd let me ;-).

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

I am with serene and trinker on this. I am so proud of you for writing this entry and being forthright about your feelings and the dichotomy you experience.

I think that what she may have been refering to was that you have indirectly communicated about your feelings of social uncertainty and here is the most open, honest, and direct communication I've seen about it from you in such forum.

[geekchick]

My understanding of the real world is that pity and romantic love don't mix. Thus bright, competent, discerning individuals don't romantically love people who are unattractive and have no accomplishments and nothing to offer.

Sure, people love other people despite their shortcomings; everyone has shortcomings. But "no accomplishments and nothing to offer" is way beyond "shortcomings." In order to romantically love someone, you have to respect them, and that means thinking their positive qualities are greater than their shortcomings.

*points* What firecat said.

[serenejournal.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm sorry; I was unclear. By "this topic" I meant your social patterns in general. I was just trying to say that this post didn't elicit (typo: illicit) the frustration that your posts about your social anxieties/frustrations sometimes do in me. I don't think it's TMI at all. I just think I was unclear.

[jemstone.livejournal.com]

A conclusion has already been reached - we often write what the other person could have.

This post hits very close to home for me, because I have been precisely where you are at. I shall decline to comment further, other than to say that I will state (even though you already have), it doesn't have to make sense - it just happens to be what's in your head. I can so totally follow this, it's eery.

-JEM

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the discussion, it is useful and helpful for contemplation.

Being very sensitive to others is one of the best ways to avoid the worst rejections... seeing subtle clues and backing away before getting squashed. Not that it's foolproof...

I need a huge, obvious, unequivocal signal before I'll accept "go forward"... otherwise, I risk misinterpreting something unrelated and causing trouble. But the slightest implied negative signal is usually enough to keep me distant, rather than outstay my welcome.

Asking would be one way to reduce the risks, and hence bring the two extremes in reaction (positive/negative) closer to a single consistent reaction.

But... if one asks for something, and it is granted, one is then in that person's debt. If it isn't granted, then there are negative feelings on both sides. Neither of those are good outcomes.

someone wants to be touched is as much about THEM as it is about you, maybe more so

Maybe. If someone doesn't want to be touched by me in a hot tub, say, but then gladly accepts the same touch from someone else, then it *is* mostly about me. I saw that firsthand recently...
so to speak ;-).

can you mutually agree with one of your existing partners that you will 'play' with the idea of you acting on your own authentic assertive/aggressive tendencies?

Hmm... first, I have to deal with my reaction that all assertive/aggressive (or "overflirty" ;) behavior is bad and oppressive to others. It has been something that I've tried to control or suppress in my personal life, seeing it as a liability. And when I see another person being likewise assertive or aggressive, control my immediate impulse to judge that person negatively, without getting to know them or their circumstances.

At work, it's much less of a problem... there, I'm being assertive or aggressive on behalf of something else, so that other entity bears the moral burden. If my department sends me to battle for our budget, I can be overbearing, dominating and pushy if that's warranted -- because I'm an agent, of sorts, fighting for something or someone else. If the other agents get annoyed with me, they blame my department, not me personally. I'm just doing my job...

As far as role-playing goes, that's an excellent idea! Although impractical at the moment (my other partners are all LDRs). I'd need a local volunteer, over time.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Scary, isn't it?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

You're right... other viewpoints can sap or undercut the foundations of a harmful mindset. But it takes time, and effort, and other people can become weary.

Pity doesn't work as a justification? Pity, because I used that one for years... the "I'm their good deed, or charity case" argument. (chuckle)

[jemstone.livejournal.com]

Disturbingly so. Unlike myself, however, you have a good number of people offering to come over and help you when you get like this. Most of the folk in my life who I would dearly love to get such support from are more textual than actual. Not that they wouldn't if they could, but they're all very far away with very little means of transport. There's only so much I can do in my own head and so much shadopanther can do before her own weights pull on her.

Don't get too down, though. It could always be worse: You could be on fire.

-JEM

[firecat]

But it takes time, and effort, and other people can become weary.

Yeah, you can't always rely on other people to do it for you. It's possible to learn to provide those alternate viewpoints yourself. (Books on cognitive therapy can help.)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmm... other than patgreene, all of my partners are far, far away... on a daily basis, more textual than real, as you said. However, I'm admittedly quite fortunate to have online friends who are willing to talk and give me constructive suggestions.

And it isn't raining, either ;-).