Jekyll/Hyde
Aug. 18th, 2003 12:25 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayA few realizations, today, largely unrelated.
For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).
At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.
Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.
Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile).patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-).
The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.
Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).
Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...
EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).
For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).
At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.
Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.
Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile).
patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-). The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.
Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).
Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...
EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 12:57 pm (UTC)That isn't saying that you didn't do very well in practicing your boundaries -- you did -- but that in your place, I think that I wouldn't have done nearly as well :-).
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 05:41 pm (UTC)Wow. Brian, have you considered how many different ways you are inviting unhappiness on yourself by choosing this approach?
Coming immediately to mind:
* compromising your own policies on how you interact with people, and having to live with yourself for choosing to do so.
* compromising your boundaries to comply with someone else's request - seemingly inviting feeling coerced, and having to live with yourself for choosing to do so.
* accepting your own discomfort for reluctance to perceiving imposing the above situations on others that may make requests of you
* (and this one inferred) reluctance to ask for what you want for fear of rejection, and if not rejection, fear of coerced compliance for want to not hurt your feelings (expecting people to have the same reactions you've described here).
All stemming from your choice to try and not decline requests.
And what gains does this approach have?
Is what you're getting out of it worth the borrowed upset?
no subject
Date: 2003-09-07 03:16 pm (UTC)However, if I'm not losing much, or if I'm simply going along with something otherwise-uninteresting, then others' feelings have a higher priority. I can live with self-reproach for compromising my own policies or boundaries -- because I'd also be self-reproaching if I thought I'd hurt someone else.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 07:12 pm (UTC)After all, if you HAVE policies... you owe it to yourself
and your loved ones to adhere to them.....
others WILL respect you for it, you know.
and, if you have policies but dont adhere to them,
generally ( I speak from experience) it will be confusing to
ohters.. and end up causing you grief in the long run.
A good thing for you to honestly consider.
You seem very able to honestly consider.....so, what is it
that prevents you from adhering?
what do you think would happen if you said "no" to
a request?
no subject
Date: 2003-09-07 03:23 pm (UTC)But if I say "no" to a fairly-innocuous request, I feel like I'll be rejecting that person, and then responsible for their negative feelings. Rather than entangle myself with that kind of responsibility, it is often easier to just give them whatever they want.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-07 03:41 pm (UTC)For instance, many might think that a request for a kiss is 'fairly innocuous'. But I consider it very meaningful, and would never dole one out JUST to make sure someone didn't feel bad.
Consider the concept you mentioned "rejecting".
If I have boundaries... I may have to make choices about who and what I want to step inside those boundaries. THat is not rejection... that is simply me choosing who steps into the 'inner sanctum', so to speak.
That's not pushing someone away... .that's choosing who to let step IN, and when.
I have lots of reasons for who/how I allow in..... as we have discussed before on other threads... it often doesn't have to do with the person as much as my own internal policies, and/or pre-existing agreements with loved ones.
If you give everyone a hug whenever they ask for one.... regardless of whether you like them or want to... .does that dilute the meaning of 'getting a hug from Brian'? Knowing this now about you... I will never be sure when I'm in person with you... whether you truly like me.. or whether you're just hugging me becuase I seemed to want a hug.
This seems to me to be unclear communicating.
I respect that you're saying what is currently true about how you feel.. becuase I've been there myself.. for many years. It IS scary to think about saying "no" to someone and fear that "it's all my fault now that their feelings are hurt". But: look at the healthy way the boundaries worked between me and
no subject
Date: 2003-09-10 01:03 am (UTC)(smile) true, but there are differences in intensity, duration and enthusiasm! And there are some people/circumstances where a hug is out-of-bounds even if the other person might like one...
THat is not rejection... that is simply me choosing who steps into the 'inner sanctum', so to speak.
I have trouble turning people away... before caller ID and anonymous-call blocking, I used to have real trouble with telemarketers. I'd buy stuff or give donations only because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. Those boundaries have gotten firmer over time, and technology has helped a lot, but for a few years Pat tried to take every evening phone call ;-).
That interaction taught me a lot about how smoothly these things CAN go.....
(nods) admittedly, there's a lot that I can learn, likewise.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-10 03:59 am (UTC)You are very empathetic, and sensitve... these are good qualities...truly.....but sounds like you've really struggled with caring so much about others' needs that you forget about your own.
A familiar problem...I am aware of where that can lead.
Telemarketers are very good people to practice your boundaries on (I know... I've used them for practice!) because although they are human, you do not have to have an ongoing relationship with them. So you don't have to have fears about how they will feel.... like you do someone who you will see at work or a party tomorrow.
I did market research over the phone when I was in high school. I can tell you from experience that it does NOT hurt their feelings if you say no... if you do it politely.....you have no idea the kind of rejections telemarketers get. To encounter a polite voice, saying either 'yes' or 'no'....is fine.
wow, this thread is getting long, eh?
:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-11 12:42 pm (UTC)Where has it led you? Have you put others' needs before yours too often in the past? If so, how did you come to realize that there was a problem?
I've gotten better at politely saying no to telemarketers... but I still fall prey occasionally. Usually to charitable causes, it is hard to say no to them even when I'm broke.
This thread... is buried down in a 3-week-old entry, so it's practically like an email discussion. Still... up over 100 comments, that's the longest of any of my LJ entries.