Jekyll/Hyde

[jay]

A few realizations, today, largely unrelated.

For some combination of reasons, I've been depressed, almost despondent at times, since we got back Friday evening. And this has spun off my usual depression-parasitic reactions... increased insecurity, defiance, self-putdowns, clingyness. Strangely, my spirits were hugely lifted in a Krispy Kreme shop tonight when the counter guy handed me a warm doughnut... "you look like you could use this." Not on my waistline, perhaps, but that little act of kindness brought me out of a funk. Thankfully, my down periods rarely persist for more than a few days, and soon I'll be back at work (which tends to drag me out of a hole).

At work I feel in charge of myself, competent, capable and I have a track record of accomplishments. Self-confidence. I know my value, and can measure my past impact in a couple of fields. And I enjoy it -- I feel passionately about what I do, and learn. All of those things collude to bring me up and make me fully-functional again.

Personally or socially... I feel adrift, incompetent, and fairly unattractive. Like I have no accomplishments, and nothing much to offer personally. Left idle at home, or without positive external social reinforcement, I'll tend to damp down and gnaw on myself. And I'm not fishing for compliments here... I'm stating my mindset, whether or not it matches reality. One reason that I avoid planning a social calendar during the workweek is that subconsciously I associate it with this mindset. Brian-the-scientist doesn't want to think about turning back into Brian-the-geek, come Friday evening, or the possibilities for failure and rejection therein. Kind of a Jekyll/Hyde flip... and at the same time, I feel internally compelled to go out and find friends and be social. I can't just hide away until Monday morning.

Another realization, coming out of a 2-hour-long chat with my dear friend EA, is that my courting behaviors, manners, and attitudes are much closer to what girls are apparently taught than boys. I wait for the other person to make the first move. I dislike pursuing... I worry about harrassing or annoying women if I show much interest. I'd much rather wait until someone shows some signs of interest, then reciprocate. All of my five past-and-present sweeties kissed me first, probably after running out of patience (wry smile). patgreene claims that I moved first, but she's wrong ;-).

The same thing is true of casual touching... even with partners or close friends. I don't want to seem forward, or make the other person uncomfortable. I almost never reach for anyone. If someone takes my hand, fine, then I can safely assume that that level of touch is welcomed from then onward. But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.

Even in the bedroom... I'm reluctant to be demanding or to impose anything on my partners... so I don't approach my partners unless they first seem interested themselves. Even if I'm really frustrated, myself. Unless I'm running out of time on an LDR visit... (reminisce).

Inculcated belief structure: approaching is aggressive. Aggression is bad...

EA's response was that she was confused, that these are things that women are often taught in this culture... and teasingly asked me what gender I was born ;-).

Comments

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

*hugs*

I'm sorry you're feeling depressed. Once you get your travel schedule figured out, call or e-mail and we can set up a time to have lunch.

I'm certain you were born male, but I'm also clear that you were enculturated as a wimp/geek/bully-target in the south, where the only "acceptable" way to be "a man" is to be a very particular kind of strong. What you were taught (in the social arena) is how to be submissive. Of course, this will look like female behavior to many folks, because almost ALL women in our culture are taught how to be submissive.

The trick for you, I think, will be seeing how you can extend your naturally more forward/aggressive/dominant behavior at work into your social life. Not that you can port it all directly, of course, but there are things that you do successfully there that you could bring to bear to improve things in your social interactions, I think.


...But if I touch a woman who doesn't want my touch, I'm a bad person, a boor.

Certainly if someone said they didn't want your touch, and you continued anyway, that would be boorish. But in fact, I think you don't get to that point most of the time. You wait for their "signal," which you may or may not be capable of reading (many people do not communicate clearly in non-verbal ways). One way in which I think you could rapidly improve your interactions would be to ASK more. "Would you like a shoulder rub?" gives the intended recipient the option of choosing. Looking longingly at their shoulders but not saying anything, OTOH, might seem polite to you, but could seem creepy to them ("why is he staring at my shoulders? Do I have dandruff or something??")

You know, I think you might seriously want to consider looking into some Tantra training. One of the first things they do in many tantra classes is discuss "intentional touch," and do some work on how it feels to touch and be touched with different mindsets. How it feels different to the touchee depending on where your awareness is as you touch them--in your hand, in their hand, in your head, off in la-la-land, etc.

OK, gotta run. Feel free to ask more questions, or just ask me when we next see one another.

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

Dawn, you rock!
and have mentioned some of the things I was thinking as I read his entry.
Brian: listen to Dawn -- she is a wise goddess
:)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(grin) she certainly rocks, and I'd probably try to worship her if she'd let me ;-).

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Actually, at the time that I wrote the entry, I was feeling better. After work today, though, I'm back down and full of bitterness for some reason... downright cranky. Battles with my management haven't helped...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time... I find your feedback generally thoughtful and valuable.

where the only "acceptable" way to be "a man" is to be a very particular kind of strong.

Without being too I'm-such-a-victim sounding, I was called "fag" "pansy", etc., and beaten up repeatedly through 7th grade...routinely derided as different and physically attacked by groups of boys. Then it was just continued verbal bullying and a couple of instances of sexual abuse through high school. The upshot of this was that I concluded that whatever characteristics or values that those other 11-year-old boys shared, I wanted to embrace the opposite. Including defying their aggression and attempts to dominate or rule others by fear.

To this day, if someone tries to bully or dominate me, I'll defy them... either directly, or (if I'm actually in their control, as at work) passive-aggessively by looking for opportunities for subversion. If there's a clique or an Establishment trying to dominate some social situation, I'll often tweak it, drawing retribution on myself, just to prove to myself that I'm not afraid of whomever... recent online episodes have had a genesis there.

While I won't *submit* to others, I still have no desire to become a "bad person" myself, trying to impose my will on others. I prefer to neither rule nor be ruled by others.

how you can extend your naturally more forward/aggressive/dominant behavior at work

Ow. Ow. As I replied to who_is_she, that feels to me like misbehavior in a personal or social domain... it's OK at work, because then I'm being aggressive on behalf of an organization, not for myself, so it, not I, bears the ethical/moral burden of aggression or domination.

Granted, there are things from work, like more self-confidence or freely-expressed joy or passion, that would probably improve my social interactions. But if I have to become domineering or aggressive or selfish to do so, I'm not sure that's worth the cost. Maybe there's some middle way.

One way in which I think you could rapidly improve your interactions would be to ASK more.

Asking has its own drawbacks -- incurred debt, else rejection and negative feedback -- but I think that I still need to do more of it. Or at least need to practice asking for difficult things, like rubbing someone's shoulders. It requires willing cooperation from others, unfortunately.

The "intentional touch" sounds fascinating... I was already interested in learning the breathing-modulation techniques. Any suggestions for training?

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

The upshot of this was that I concluded that whatever characteristics or values that those other 11-year-old boys shared, I wanted to embrace the opposite. Including defying their aggression and attempts to dominate or rule others by fear.

That makes sense. Yet I think you may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You don't want to embrace domination as your only mode of operation, nor do you want to "rule others by fear." But being assertive is NOT either dominating or ruling by fear. It is possible to "embrace the power of AND" here--be sensitive to others' needs, AND be assertive for what YOU need, at the same time. You are not a "bad person" for stating your needs/desires/wants assertively, nor is ASKING for what you need or want automatically "imposing your will" on them. Only if you failed to take them into account would this be imposing your will. And somehow, I doubt that is even POSSIBLE for you at this point.


Granted, there are things from work, like more self-confidence or freely-expressed joy or passion, that would probably improve my social interactions. But if I have to become domineering or aggressive or selfish to do so, I'm not sure that's worth the cost. Maybe there's some middle way.

Yes, I think there is a middle way. I think it is exemplified in the quote on your info page: "Low key, but passionate." The problem that I see is that you're still stuck in binary thinking here: Either/Or; Yes/No; dominant/submissive. But there's a lot of ground between dominant and submissive, and neither one has to exclude the other at all times. You yourself, at work, can be both "low key" AND "passionate." In order to do that, you bring your whole self to the table. You don't back down. You do what you know to be true and right, up to and including *fighting* for that when it's appropriate, and in WAYS that are appropriate. This is what I mean by there ought to be ways to bring your successful interactions at work into your personal life. Apparently, the idea that "someone else" is in some way ultimately responsible for your actions in that context gives you what you need to be able to move without restriction. I submit that it is NO DIFFERENT in personal interactions than in your work ones. You are able to separate the *person* from their *role at work." If someone else loses a contract because of something you did, you don't think that you've hurt THEM; you're clear that you did what you thought was right, and trust that they can deal with the rejection/loss involved. Your "fighting" for something doesn't mean that you are dominating them as a *person*, and both you and they know that. The same should be true outside of work as well. You must learn to separate the *person* (who they ARE) from their *role* (e.g., what they DO) in any given situation.


The "intentional touch" sounds fascinating... I was already interested in learning the breathing-modulation techniques. Any suggestions for training?

Check out Celebrations of Love in Marin. That's where we took our classes in tantra and intentional touch. In fact, Francesca's Sacred Sensual Dance class might be a good class for you to consider. She's very good with baby steps, and discusses how dancing for oneself differs from dancing for an audience. In at least some of her classes she has done some intentional touch work, though I don't know if that's included in the evening-long (as opposed to the day-long) version of the class. I see that they are listing a Tantric Massage class right now that might address both the touch and tantra-breathing aspects that I mentioned.

Other locations are certainly possible for training as well (Body Electric, for instance), but I don't know the other programs as well.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... ever heard of a personality-assesment instrument called FIRO-B? Its questions look at interpersonal relationships, and hence is popular in workplace team-building retreats. Results are in terms of the person's desire-for/willingness-to-give, in three areas: Inclusion, Affection, and Control. On a 0-9 scale, my Control scores were... desired-for-myself 9, willingness-to-give 1.

Combined with a low Affection score (1-1), my coworkers jokingly referred to mine as the "dictator profile" (I was the project manager, responsible for 25 people ;). I *much* prefer being in control, or in charge, to being controlled. By a far greater margin than my colleagues at that time. Lack of assertiveness was not a problem... This was at work, though, where it was OK to express that preference. Different mindset, again. But still polite-on-the-surface, still low-key.

[note: this was also 8 years ago, pre-poly, when I was rigorously suppressing most of my emotions in an attempt to remain monogamous and conforming. I suspect that if I took the FIRO today, I'd have higher Affection scores and slightly softer Control scores.]

In the workplace, I'm a lone wolf, at times a pirate... can't accept direction well from others, scheming, regular trampling of rules and regulations, opportunistic. But I bring projects and experiments and people together faster than nearly anyone else can, and I sometimes win $150-million new programs... so they grumble and keep me on. Two-thirds of the people in my division suck at the teat of the last program I brought in (with JL), three years ago. Even so, no one really wants me in their department, as I'm either a potential threat or just difficult to manage. hopeforyou has witnessed parts of this...

The upshot is that I wouldn't hesitate for an instant to assert my project's or team's needs, or asking for what I needed to make something work. If I get "no", I'm persistent and try five other ways of getting my requirements met. I work wonders with airlines and travel bookings, too ;-). And getting upgrades.

But in my personal life, in the other mindset... asking seems pushy, assertiveness seems rude and insensitive. Some of that is probably cultural (as you mentioned). But it doesn't serve me well, as firecat and others pointed out.

In order to do that, you bring your whole self to the table. ... and in WAYS that are appropriate.

Hmmm... you're right, I think. And there are precedents for me, even personally. My closest friends/partners tend to see more of the whole person, as I stop treating them as delicate flowers after awhile. patgreene sees me unchanged from Brian-as-scientist at work... I'm completely comfortable being assertive and asking her for things. Or reaching to her. I don't always, depending on relationship dynamics, but I'm comfortable doing so. After nearly five years, that's true about half the time with Nancy... although some areas are still guarded or polite (financial...). Around geekchick, though, after 18 months I'm still mostly treating her as a fragile, easily-spooked creature when I'm with her, concerned about not overstepping her boundaries or being too demanding. I don't know how she feels about that.

You must learn to separate the *person* (who they ARE) from their *role* (e.g., what they DO) in any given situation.

This is valuable... I need to mull over its implications. Maybe role-playing would be helpful.

listing a Tantric Massage class
true, however it requires paired singles or else couples. patgreene isn't interested :-|, so I'd have to recruit a partner from somewhere. The topics sounded on-target, though.

[geekchick]

I don't know how she feels about that.

Actually, I think you do. =)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... it's not part of the standard argument list, at least.

[geekchick]

Not specifically, but other standard arguments touch on it. To be clear, I don't particularly enjoy it. I am not some fragile little doll that needs to be handled gingerly or some skittish animal that won't let you approach, and I dislike feeling like it's somehow my responsibility to always read your mind and just know what you want without you saying anything. If you want something you're not getting, then you need to ask for it sometimes, otherwise how do you expect your partner to know that you want/need something and what it is? I can't speak for Pat or Nancy, but I'm definitely not a mind reader. I've gotten a lot better myself at learing to speak up about what I need recently, since the demise of a relationship where I was scared to speak up about what I wanted and things just festered until there was no repairing it. If I'd spoken up earlier, I still probably would've have gotten what I really wanted, but now I'll never know for sure (and I could've put a lot less time and energy into the relationship if I'd known sooner that those particular needs were just not going to be met).

[geekchick]

This probably came off as sounding like I expect you to do everything, and that's not true. You should speak up about these things, and I should also try to be aware of times when you're feeling bothered by something. It's a lot harder to successfully guess whether there's something you feel like you're not getting though when we don't get to spend extended periods of time together to get a better handle on each other's body language and such; unless and until that situation changes, I'll need for you to be proactive sometimes about making your needs and wants known.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

We need a bit more formal, and at least I need to ask more... in part because in 18 months we've spent a total of maybe a week in each other's physical presence? In some ways, we're still very much in the awkward/scoping-out stage. But it is only fair that I be proactive about making my needs known.

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

Tantra classes:

Check out this one instead. It's an overview class, giving a smattering of different techniques and teachers:
http://www.celebrationsoflove.com/new/html/descriptions/desc_festival_3.html
Look at their calendar for other classes, too.

A shame that Pat doesn't want to do the massage one with you. I think she might learn a lot of really good stuff. I was hoping that it could become something for the two of you to do TOGETHER. FWIW, I think that the "paired singles" thing on the Tantric Massage class may just mean that they will pair you up with someone. If you are registering as a couple, then you are a couple, no? I'd say CALL them, and ask this question. There's a reason I used to post all those ads on SFBayPoly about discounts for women at COL--they need them to pair up with the guys like you!

Had not previously heard of FIRO-B, no. Interesting! It does sound like you want to aim somewhere a little more middle-of-the-road as you become more assertive in your personal life, though. :^) Perhaps these two areas have been balancing each other out? Maybe as you become more assertive at "home" you'll be more able to let go of some of the strict control at work? Dunno, just musing here...


The upshot is that I wouldn't hesitate for an instant to assert my project's or team's needs, or asking for what I needed to make something work. If I get "no", I'm persistent and try five other ways of getting my requirements met. I work wonders with airlines and travel bookings, too ;-). And getting upgrades.

I'll just bet! Remind me to call on you next time I need to talk someone into giving me something. ;^)

And that is indeed the kind of persistance I'm talking about. You don't (AFAICT) get nasty, or run over these people. You just don't take no for an answer, and keep looking for ways to turn it to a yes--politely, but firmly. It was exactly that--gentle persistance--that got me to say yes to your invitations to lunch. You just need to learn to extend that skill to other areas of life.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

patgreene has said that she will take a tantra class with me, provided that everyone in it keeps their clothes on (body image...) and I could find babysitting. Otherwise, I'm on my own ;-).

Maybe as you become more assertive at "home" you'll be more able to let go of some of the strict control at work?

Like anything too tightly squeezed, it leaks out in other places. Being unwilling to tolerate control at work... or overly-aggressive driving (geekchick has threatened to stop riding with me). With other avenues of expression, perhaps I'd relax a bit, who knows.

Airline/agent persuasion... working through three travel agents and two airline agents, I went from having a Delta flight to Washington on Sunday, to Northwest, to NW via Minneapolis, to a 3.5 hour layover in Minneapolis (lunch with Nancy!) with first-class seats. Much of it is simply knowing what to ask for, in what sequence, persistently, and being firm-but-congenial...

[dawnd.livejournal.com]

patgreene has said that she will take a tantra class with me, provided that everyone in it keeps their clothes on

You'll have to ask them. Most of their classes are clothes-on, but not all. Ususally the ones that are clothing optional are clothing OPTIONAL--you can decide how much clothing to keep on. A massage class could be tricky in that regard, as it's much easier to do massage with no clothes on. That particular one might not be the best bet for Pat as a result. But I KNOW that there are other Tantra classes at COL that are clothing-on classes. Don't assume anything--call them and ask specific questions.