comment on symbolism in relationships

[jay]

Dredged up from a conversation still going on in a month-old entry of mine...

[quote from bikerscum:]
Why does it devalue to you a sincere offer to babysit if you know that similar offers are made to others?

(grin) it doesn't! That's not my context. My context is: if offers to babysit are made to others, but not to me, then *I'm* devalued (not the offer) with respect to whatever set of others, in the network of the person making the babysitting offers. In a connectionist sense, my link-weighting estimate is reduced.

If the given person makes babysitting offers to a stranger-with-kids he's just met, but I'm supposedly a close friend of his and he's never offered (or refused my past request), then my estimation of the value of my friendship in that person's eyes is placed lower than that of someone he's just met -- i.e., practically zero.

In a third-grade context... (grin)

If mommy gives all the other kids a cookie but won't give me one, that means that she must love all of them more than me... If she gives one to the new kid that just moved in down the street, but not to me, then she must not love me at all, because she doesn't love the new kid at all (and I'm even less important that he is, because he gets a cookie and I don't).

That's over-simplified, but how I feel about symbolism... especially for publicly-displayed things. The "cookie" may be unimportant in itself, but as a token it conveys information about the state of a given friendship or relationship.

Comments

[bdot.livejournal.com]

interesting brian.....

i look at many things in much the same way. if him and her and i are all friends of 'z' and 'z' invites the other two someplace and not me, then i am less of a friend to 'z'. now i have since learned that this is not always true. in some cases, 'z' knows that i will not like (for example) whatever the activity is, so doesn't even mention it to me. it is not that i am less of a friend, but rather, 'z' knows me pretty well!

in the same breath, however, knowing that this is what is going on and not being hurt by it are two different things! i would much rather receive the invite and decline it of my own accord or; who knows, maybe the company would be worth enduring the event!

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

/me is amused to note that it was a reply of yours in my journal that prompted me to look back in your journal for what you were reacting about and led me to the thread we've been exploring.

btw - I was about to start working up a reply to this in the old thread. Any preference from you on if I do that there or here?

Also - mind if I link to the discussion in my own journal? I've a few points I've been thinking of expanding on and that struck me as something I might want to do there.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

So - in this third grade context - fixating on the cookie forgets to remember the daily kiss goodnight, the bandaging of scraped knees, and the help with homework, not to mention birthday parties trips to grandma's, and getting to stay up late to watch the tele once in a while (things even less likely to be given out to the other neighborhood kids). All of these things, might also be offered to other kids, but the particular combination of them is probably a unique one to her child(ren).

And falling quickly to the extreme - maybe Mom does for whatever reason love the new kid down the street, maybe even more than her own kids. So what?! How does that necessitate a devaluation of her love for her own kids?

I understand why a 3rd grader wouldn't be able to see the context or rationally process the bigger picture - and shouldn't have to - that's why we don't consider 3rd graders mature adults capable of making their own decisions. How do you demonstrate to your kids (clearly, in terms that they accept) that going to work every day doesn't mean you don't love them? Or that you don't love them less on weekdays than you do on nights and weekends. Or that they shouldn't take your travel plans as abandonment?

then my estimation of the value of my friendship in that person's eyes is placed lower than that of someone he's just met

But, how apart from your choice to devalue the relationship does that other person's action devalue your relationship?

If you have what is perceived as a mutually (!= equally) valuable relationship with someone before you notice that they offer to babysit for other people - apart from your choice of reaction, how does the relationship change when you notice that offer elsewhere?

I can't see passed my interpretation of jealous pouting in this example to understand it better. It just doesn't at all parse for me.

[technomom]

I realize that the babysitting is just an example, but . . .

There are friends for whom I will babysit, and friends for whom I will not. That says nothing about how much I value the friendship - it usually has much more to do with how consonant our parenting practices are, and how appropriate my home is for babysitting their children in particular.

I'm much more likely to offer to watch a 6-year-old than a toddler, simply because our home is much better suited to that without major changes, and my personal activity restrictions aren't going to be as much of a problem with a 6-year-old.

I assume that others have their own standards, and don't try to make any judgments about their decisions without actually discussing the reasons behind them if I really feel that it's important.

[wordweaverlynn.livejournal.com]

The "cookie" may be unimportant in itself, but as a token it conveys information about the state of a given friendship or relationship.

Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. You have a numbered of unexamined assumptions there, and they could well be working against you. I'm not sure that a discussion about rationales for babysitting or whatever is actually likely to make any difference -- or maybe it would. Maybe a little cognitive retraining would give you better filters to sort out real information from the static. And, to continue the metaphor, a bit of ground-truthing wouldn't hurt.

What distresses me is the emotion that I suspect may be underlying this concern with cookies: a desperate eagerness for any proof of affection, a terrible soul-wrenching fear that love might be taken away for any reason or none. I hate to see a friend in such pain.