my backsliding, exclusion of others?

[jay]

On the one hand, I don't feel like I'm inherently unworthy and unlovable as result of Wednesday night, so that's an improvement over the past. But I have still blown it... I promised myself a month ago to stop looking for external reassurement or validation, and therefore I should not have let the absence of such affect me at all. Grr. As soon as I needed a shoulder, off I went. (shakes head) This is going to be harder than I could have imagined.

Thanks to both dawnd at lunch and p3aches tonight for their friendly reality-check inputs. :)

One thing that popped up in a comment in someone else's journal... about people feeling excluded. I try to not say "no" to requests unless core health or safety issues are at stake for me... not merely for my wants or convenience. I initially thought "of course I haven't excluded anyone", but the idea has been wriggling memelike since then, finally seeding a small doubt.

No one has ever told me that they've felt excluded by me... if anyone has, I hope that they'd tell me so, either by comment or email, as well as my behaviors at the time. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that I'm in the clear on that issue...

Comments

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I feel like I have no grounds for saying "no".

"This does not amuse me" ought to be grounds enough. Even if you choose to weight other considerations with higher priority, even if all the time. But pretty much, any internal response short of "[joyful exclamation]! [declaration of instinctual and rational certainty] - [fulfillment of purpose], [embodiment of joy]. [Impassioned urge to accept]." is grounds enough for saying no.


Especially if saying no will disappoint someone else, or leave them definably worse off, or their needs unmet.

Just a few rhetorical points to consider... Assuming that your declining the request would result in that person's needs going unmet - how many such situations are appropriate - that someone else is basing their needs on your availability, compliance, and successful fulfillment of their request? :-/

If it isn't a matter of fulfilling needs, how does this notion of "definably worse off" work? Apart from the "disappointed" emotional response (and the increased information), how has their situation changed in the time between just prior to their asking and just after your reply?

And just to the point of "if saying no will disappoint"... do you consider who will be disappointed from your saying yes? How about yourself?


I likewise tend to project this structure on others... so making a request of anyone is a very serious act for me.

Which is to my way of thinking a poor-boundaries issue. When making requests in this construct, those requests are burdening to the other party when they come with an expectation of fulfillment. That construct imposes obligation and places the recipient in a position to choose between submitting to or rejecting the obligation.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Interesting... we're quite different here. I feel like my internal responses should be irrelevant to a given request -- external circumstances should decide. If I'm being asked to do something which will break a promise made to others (not myself, those are quite breakable) or jeopardize others' or my own safety or my career, then those external constraints are relevant on a given request. Simply being indifferent or unamused... no. Not unless it is also something that I (in my best caretaking guise ;) believe to not be in the petitioner's best interests (again, externally-driven).

And why wouldn't others base their needs on my availability and compliance? That happens frequently at work, as well as at home. I expect it.

Before and after a reply... If I say "no", I've just closed a door for them, as well as rejected them and implied that their needs are/were a lower priority for me than whatever else I'm doing then.

do you consider who will be disappointed from your saying yes? How about yourself?

I consider how saying "yes" affects other promises I've made, sure... external constraints. Myself... I can just grit my teeth and deal with it.

those requests are burdening to the other party when they come with an expectation of fulfillment.

Exactly why I'm *very* reluctant to ask for anything, except in dire need...

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I feel like my internal responses should be irrelevant to a given request -- external circumstances should decide.

Isn't that like the textbook definition of co-dependency?

If I say "no", I've just closed a door for them, as well as rejected them and implied that their needs are/were a lower priority for me than whatever else I'm doing then.

Wow! That's a lot of baggage to stuff into such a little word.


princeofwands:
brian1789:

I'm not asking about promises. Or obligations. I'm asking only about disappointment. You've described at length how much importance the disappointment others might feel from your saying no to them - do you consider the ways in which others may feel disappointed when you say yes to a request?

(constructing a hypothetical example from real life events...) For example - when last week you chose to spend the evening helping a friend instead of popping in over that the DHP (yes, I know that due to the presence of the_ogre you weren't going to turn up anyway... let's ignore that for now...) - did you consider the people looking forward to seeing you at the DHP who were disappointed at not seeing you because of the yes you gave to help a friend for the evening? mertuil comes immediately to mind as someone that expressed disappointment at that turn of events.

I'd rather avoid the validation though others' expectations topic entirely but it seems a front for exploring disappointment and obligation that you're at least receptive to.

princeofwands:
brian1789:

Do you see how that is a self propagating cycle? Among people you know for whom this is not the case - that requests are not burdensome obligations there isn't generally an issue here.
However, when you make your requests a dire matter - that are overloaded with obligation, identity, rejection, etc - you make it hard for them to address your requests one way or the other. And in doing so heighten your sense of personal stake in those requests.

It makes it hard on others - not just for asserting your world-view and values over their decision making process, but also in obligating them as considerate people to base their decision in part on how that world-view may lead to you over-reacting to whatever response they choose.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Isn't that like the textbook definition of co-dependency?

From an online medical dictionary: "A relational pattern in which a person attempts to derive a sense of purpose through relationships with others."

I don't think that quite fits... honoring external obligations, promises made to others, as "derive a sense of purpose"? Then the fulfillment of any promise made between two people could be argued to be likewise, it seems to me.

do you consider the ways in which others may feel disappointed when you say yes to a request?

Not unless I already have a conflicting agreement with others, in place. Otherwise, I'm not responsible for uninvolved third-parties' reactions to a given request made to me. In the DHP example, I had no prior agreement with mertuil, no request that she had made of me herself. Therefore when agreeing to help a friend instead of attending the party, I felt I had broached no obligation to the party attendees (including mertuil, who by all accounts had a better time anyway than if I'd been there ;).

So in short, for me saying "no" to anyone is hard, but "yes" is generally easy.

Do you see how that is a self propagating cycle?

If I understand you... it is that my requests are only made under considerable need or distress, hence are loaded with significance. Others will shrink at assuming that obligation to me and tend to refuse out of hand, thereby reinforcing my convictions that everyone else is unreliable and unsupportive, as well as reinforcing that I should ask even *less* often.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(shakes groggy head) er, breached...