my backsliding, exclusion of others?

[jay]

On the one hand, I don't feel like I'm inherently unworthy and unlovable as result of Wednesday night, so that's an improvement over the past. But I have still blown it... I promised myself a month ago to stop looking for external reassurement or validation, and therefore I should not have let the absence of such affect me at all. Grr. As soon as I needed a shoulder, off I went. (shakes head) This is going to be harder than I could have imagined.

Thanks to both dawnd at lunch and p3aches tonight for their friendly reality-check inputs. :)

One thing that popped up in a comment in someone else's journal... about people feeling excluded. I try to not say "no" to requests unless core health or safety issues are at stake for me... not merely for my wants or convenience. I initially thought "of course I haven't excluded anyone", but the idea has been wriggling memelike since then, finally seeding a small doubt.

No one has ever told me that they've felt excluded by me... if anyone has, I hope that they'd tell me so, either by comment or email, as well as my behaviors at the time. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that I'm in the clear on that issue...

Comments

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

No one has ever told me that they've felt excluded by me... if anyone has, I hope that they'd tell me so, either by comment or email, as well as my behaviors at the time. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that I'm in the clear on that issue...

You said in the comments to your last post that you don't blame anyone else for "excluding" you because you know it's your own responsibility to get your needs met. This, however, sounds very blaming. *You* don't exclude, but *other* people do.

Which is it?

-J

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Both. :) I take responsibility for (not) getting my needs met, *and* I simultaneously take responsibility for trying to get others' needs met. Parents do this frequently...

[dangerpudding.livejournal.com]

Aha!

Parents do this frequently...

Yes, they do. When their children can't yet take that responsibility themselves, they always do. Even after their children can, they keep some of it, perhaps without needing to.

However, you aren't a parent to anyone in your social set. You *don't* hold that responsibility, unless it has been requested that you do, and even there, you have to agree to it, and it's probably only for a specific time period.

I know that I, at least, am looking for friends, not parents. I have too many parents as it is. I appreciate friends who are willing to help me meet my needs when I ask them to, but it's not something I'm looking for them to do by default.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Helping others freely when asked, while trying to not impose on anyone myself... the vast majority isn't even aware of the imbalance. Let alone any pseudo-parental mindset on my part. But you are on to something... but it only seems to become an issue on the rare occasions when things get bad enough here that I actually admit that I need a hand or a hug. Then... internal conflict.

[therealjae.livejournal.com]

Treating friends or potential friends like children is NOT a good way to make them want to be around you.

-J

[elorie.livejournal.com]

I try to not say "no" to requests unless core health or safety issues are at stake for me... not merely for my wants or convenience

Merely? Your wants and convenience?

A lot depends on the nature of the request...and the closeness of the person involved. But I wonder, what with having a wife and kids and a job, how you have time, and when you spend time on yourself.

I don't think excluding people is bad, depending on what you are talking about. Not everyone has the same level of intimacy with everyone else, and that is right and good. Not everyone has the same level of claims on your time and energy...or you on theirs.

On the other hand, in a social situation that's **supposed** to be open but really isn't, exclusion sucks. And excluding them and letting them know they are being excluded is just plain rude.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

If I have a countervailing request (say, from Pat or work) then they will effectively cancel each other... if I can't satisfy two sides in something, then I will allow my wants and needs to weigh in to the decision. Or will assess the relative harm posed to each side by my not fulfilling their conflicting requests, and choose the path of minimizing overall harm done.

When do I have time? I squeeze it out of holes in my daytime work schedule (it helps to have 5 weeks of vacation per year), while in dead time on business trips, and in evenings when Pat is typically watching TV. I don't watch TV or DVDs, I don't game, I don't have many personal hobbies or pursuits anymore except skating lessons in winter. I don't read for pleasure except while seated on airplanes or working out in the gym. I settle for a cluttered home and office rather than spend the time repetitively cleaning -- unless Pat makes a request ;-).

Time for me? Typically happens late at night, after Pat is asleep, between 11pm-2am. I've learned to adjust to living on 4-5 hours of sleep per night. That sleep-reduction is also helpful in other ways, like reducing desire for sex (opportunities for which are infrequent).

As far as claims on energy go... I find it hard to make requests myself of anyone unless I already have some claim on their time and energy due to blood or extended-family closeness. Even in small things... one of my problems at social gatherings happens when I have no partners or intimate friends there, and hence no one that I can feel relaxed about approaching if I start to become stressed or lonely. Absent that safety net, things can spiral downward...

[geekchick]

I try to not say "no" to requests unless core health or safety issues are at stake for me... not merely for my wants or convenience.

This sounds like it ties in to the "working on boundary issues" you talked about in regard to counseling sessions. It is perfect reasonable to say "no" to requests on occasion; just because you theoretically *can* do something doesn't mean you *have* to.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

If I can manage somehow to say "yes", at some tolerable cost, then I feel like I have no grounds for saying "no". Especially if saying no will disappoint someone else, or leave them definably worse off, or their needs unmet.

I likewise tend to project this structure on others... so making a request of anyone is a very serious act for me.

[geekchick]

or their needs unmet.

Why is it your job to meet everyone else's needs all the time?

I likewise tend to project this structure on others...

And this would be where you get into trouble, no? =)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

It becomes my job when someone asks... until that moment, I have no responsibility for their outcome. Afterward, I will inevitably have an impact, one way or another. So I'm similarly careful about asking for things from others, myself, not wanting to lay that burden on them unnecessarily.

And this would be where you get into trouble, no? =)

(nods) when my carefully-considered, rationed request is blithely blown off by the other person as being of no consequence, yes, that gets to be annoying...

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

It becomes my job when someone asks... until that moment, I have no responsibility for their outcome.

I would argue that generalized - it doesn't become your job until you choose to make it your job.

In some cases (as you've cited above, like having competing requests/obligations) that's when you choose to accept the request. In other cases, perhaps when you've chosen to accept that role for someone - where their every wish is but your command. Leading toward the parenting example above - where it is your job as long as you are being that parent regardless of the asking. But in every case, there is a decision point where you accept the responsibility - and that choice happens internally rather than at someone else's whim, no?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I would argue that generalized - it doesn't become your job until you choose to make it your job.

The only way I can see to avoiding it is to avoid hearing a request in the first place... rather like the Supreme Court deciding whether or not to hear a given case. Once they've decided to hear it, they've chosen to make it their job... they will decide, one way or another.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

Aha, but when they decline to "hear" a case, they do not base the decision on no information regarding the case, they instead accept and interpret the case and determine if their limited time/attention/effort/energy is well spent on the particular request based on what they have been initially told.

Much like when someone says "Hey, could you give me a ride...?" Having received the request, you have the power to consider whether your limited time/attention/effort/energy is well spent on that request.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

You're right, the Supreme Court is a flawed analogy, as they've already received information (and hence a refusal to hear equals a "no").

To avoid making it my job, I'd have to avoid the person making the request... somehow.

[geekchick]

It becomes my job when someone asks... until that moment, I have no responsibility for their outcome.

No, it becomes your job when you choose to make it so.

(nods) when my carefully-considered, rationed request is blithely blown off by the other person as being of no consequence, yes, that gets to be annoying...

You know, what I'm getting out of this discussion is that when you make a request of me, I'm unable to say no without it being a Big Deal[tm] for you. Am I wrong in this?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Mostly wrong, because I wasn't Talking About You (tm) per se, but about how I approach asking people generally. The more known-and-trusted someone is to me, the easier it is to hear refusals and consequently the more likely I am to ask for things directly.

Check your own personal experience... you and patgreene both tell me "no" on a variety of things, with some frequency, and I don't fall to pieces afterward. I even ask you for some things that I know are likely to be refused ;-). Or that will possibly annoy you by my asking... yet I will do so anyway with you. That latitude and risk-taking with you is actually a huge compliment and vote of trust on my part, whether or not perceived as such (smile).

[geekchick]

Mostly wrong, because I wasn't Talking About You (tm) per se, but about how I approach asking people generally.

Granted that it wasn't specifically about me, nor did I think it was actually.

you and patgreene both tell me "no" on a variety of things, with some frequency, and I don't fall to pieces afterward.

Well, this is a good thing. =) You seem to be saying elsewhere though that you don't disclose any inconvenience that you may be dealing with to the person who's asking you for something, so it could probably be understandable if I also figured that you would generally also hide any disappointment from the person who turns you down. I'm glad to hear that's not the case.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Not the case for you and Pat, at least. ;-) And maybe a couple of others.

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I feel like I have no grounds for saying "no".

"This does not amuse me" ought to be grounds enough. Even if you choose to weight other considerations with higher priority, even if all the time. But pretty much, any internal response short of "[joyful exclamation]! [declaration of instinctual and rational certainty] - [fulfillment of purpose], [embodiment of joy]. [Impassioned urge to accept]." is grounds enough for saying no.


Especially if saying no will disappoint someone else, or leave them definably worse off, or their needs unmet.

Just a few rhetorical points to consider... Assuming that your declining the request would result in that person's needs going unmet - how many such situations are appropriate - that someone else is basing their needs on your availability, compliance, and successful fulfillment of their request? :-/

If it isn't a matter of fulfilling needs, how does this notion of "definably worse off" work? Apart from the "disappointed" emotional response (and the increased information), how has their situation changed in the time between just prior to their asking and just after your reply?

And just to the point of "if saying no will disappoint"... do you consider who will be disappointed from your saying yes? How about yourself?


I likewise tend to project this structure on others... so making a request of anyone is a very serious act for me.

Which is to my way of thinking a poor-boundaries issue. When making requests in this construct, those requests are burdening to the other party when they come with an expectation of fulfillment. That construct imposes obligation and places the recipient in a position to choose between submitting to or rejecting the obligation.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Interesting... we're quite different here. I feel like my internal responses should be irrelevant to a given request -- external circumstances should decide. If I'm being asked to do something which will break a promise made to others (not myself, those are quite breakable) or jeopardize others' or my own safety or my career, then those external constraints are relevant on a given request. Simply being indifferent or unamused... no. Not unless it is also something that I (in my best caretaking guise ;) believe to not be in the petitioner's best interests (again, externally-driven).

And why wouldn't others base their needs on my availability and compliance? That happens frequently at work, as well as at home. I expect it.

Before and after a reply... If I say "no", I've just closed a door for them, as well as rejected them and implied that their needs are/were a lower priority for me than whatever else I'm doing then.

do you consider who will be disappointed from your saying yes? How about yourself?

I consider how saying "yes" affects other promises I've made, sure... external constraints. Myself... I can just grit my teeth and deal with it.

those requests are burdening to the other party when they come with an expectation of fulfillment.

Exactly why I'm *very* reluctant to ask for anything, except in dire need...

[princeofwands.livejournal.com]

I feel like my internal responses should be irrelevant to a given request -- external circumstances should decide.

Isn't that like the textbook definition of co-dependency?

If I say "no", I've just closed a door for them, as well as rejected them and implied that their needs are/were a lower priority for me than whatever else I'm doing then.

Wow! That's a lot of baggage to stuff into such a little word.


princeofwands:
brian1789:

I'm not asking about promises. Or obligations. I'm asking only about disappointment. You've described at length how much importance the disappointment others might feel from your saying no to them - do you consider the ways in which others may feel disappointed when you say yes to a request?

(constructing a hypothetical example from real life events...) For example - when last week you chose to spend the evening helping a friend instead of popping in over that the DHP (yes, I know that due to the presence of the_ogre you weren't going to turn up anyway... let's ignore that for now...) - did you consider the people looking forward to seeing you at the DHP who were disappointed at not seeing you because of the yes you gave to help a friend for the evening? mertuil comes immediately to mind as someone that expressed disappointment at that turn of events.

I'd rather avoid the validation though others' expectations topic entirely but it seems a front for exploring disappointment and obligation that you're at least receptive to.

princeofwands:
brian1789:

Do you see how that is a self propagating cycle? Among people you know for whom this is not the case - that requests are not burdensome obligations there isn't generally an issue here.
However, when you make your requests a dire matter - that are overloaded with obligation, identity, rejection, etc - you make it hard for them to address your requests one way or the other. And in doing so heighten your sense of personal stake in those requests.

It makes it hard on others - not just for asserting your world-view and values over their decision making process, but also in obligating them as considerate people to base their decision in part on how that world-view may lead to you over-reacting to whatever response they choose.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Isn't that like the textbook definition of co-dependency?

From an online medical dictionary: "A relational pattern in which a person attempts to derive a sense of purpose through relationships with others."

I don't think that quite fits... honoring external obligations, promises made to others, as "derive a sense of purpose"? Then the fulfillment of any promise made between two people could be argued to be likewise, it seems to me.

do you consider the ways in which others may feel disappointed when you say yes to a request?

Not unless I already have a conflicting agreement with others, in place. Otherwise, I'm not responsible for uninvolved third-parties' reactions to a given request made to me. In the DHP example, I had no prior agreement with mertuil, no request that she had made of me herself. Therefore when agreeing to help a friend instead of attending the party, I felt I had broached no obligation to the party attendees (including mertuil, who by all accounts had a better time anyway than if I'd been there ;).

So in short, for me saying "no" to anyone is hard, but "yes" is generally easy.

Do you see how that is a self propagating cycle?

If I understand you... it is that my requests are only made under considerable need or distress, hence are loaded with significance. Others will shrink at assuming that obligation to me and tend to refuse out of hand, thereby reinforcing my convictions that everyone else is unreliable and unsupportive, as well as reinforcing that I should ask even *less* often.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(shakes groggy head) er, breached...