My usual approach would be your "worst-case"... I wouldn't want any of my concerns to affect your willingness to accept help. In my mind, you should decide based on your needs... and I wouldn't want you to feel guilty afterward.
Omitting details about putting yourself out is something I'd rather have the decision about left to me. It's been my experince that most people feel this way as well.
She needed help, that was what mattered. I didn't feel that I was being inconsiderate of Rose's feelings...
Putting yourself in rosefox's position, would you want someone to make that much of a sacrifice for you, and then not give you the option of having enough information to decide to accept?
rosefox probably always will want to know more, not less. But at some level, details about putting myself out are private, so I only have to divulge them if I feel comfortable with it (and are directly asked, probably). If I'm not holding her responsible for putting me out, or claiming future consideration in return, then it doesn't affect her and she has no need to know...
If I'm not holding her responsible for putting me out, or claiming future consideration in return, then it doesn't affect her and she has no need to know...
Need to, no. Would prefer to, certainly. I tend to err on the "would prefer to know about it" for putting myself out in a substantial way, and my prefernce for what other people would want from me. Just to be clear, no one is denying you have a right to private self denial in service of others, but you did ask about how people react to it.
If I'm not holding her responsible for putting me out, or claiming future consideration in return, then it doesn't affect her and she has no need to know...
That leaves out my responsibility to myself to act in what I consider to be an ethical manner. As a friend, I'd hope you would support me in that, including by giving me maximal information in a decision-making situation so that I can have the highest possible chance of making the best choice. It may not be what you think of as the best choice, but it's my choice; and if I end up choosing badly, I may not get fallout from you, but I will get some from myself, and you will certainly get fallout from me if I feel you've withheld information that could have led to me making what I feel is the better choice. For heaven's sake, give me the information and then argue with me if you think I'll come to the wrong conclusion based on it, but don't lie to me or hide things from me.
And yes, I do consider that a decision-making situation for me as well as you, since I could have asked other people for rides or used public transit if necessary. Maybe you didn't see that as called-for, but if I'd been fully informed, I very well might have. My idea of ethical behavior is that I accept the offer of help from the person who is sacrificing least for it, and that I do my best to return favors in kind (not because my friend requires compensation, but because it's what I feel is the fair thing for me to do). You didn't give me the opportunity to behave ethically, because you didn't let me know what you were sacrificing. Is that your idea of being a good and helpful friend, or just wanting to control the situation?
My idea of ethical behavior is that I accept the offer of help from the person who is sacrificing least for it
Hmm. That makes sense, and I'd probably want to do the same thing in your place. At that time, it didn't occur to me that that would be one of your motivations, or that you'd care -- in some sense, I underestimated you. I apologize for that.
I'd hope you would support me in that As a friend, I want to support you in making ethical choices, just as I want others to support me likewise. So in the same set of circumstances, I'd inform you of the side-effects. Hopefully... generalizing that to all people is hard.
Apology accepted. As for generalization, I think it's partly difficult because you don't meet people with an open mind; you have a preconceived idea of how they'll behave (or probably several preconceived ideas, based on whether they're male or female, boss or subordinate, etc.), and so it's harder for you to see their internal workings and motivations and ethical sets.
(nods) I have default behavioral-templates which I quickly adjust and tweak to match a given person's behaviors as I know them better... later, I use the refined model in a predictive sense, to interpret or project the meaning of that person's actions.
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no subject
Date: 2004-04-18 07:45 pm (UTC)Omitting details about putting yourself out is something I'd rather have the decision about left to me. It's been my experince that most people feel this way as well.
She needed help, that was what mattered. I didn't feel that I was being inconsiderate of Rose's feelings...
Putting yourself in
no subject
Date: 2004-04-19 04:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-19 11:14 pm (UTC)Need to, no. Would prefer to, certainly. I tend to err on the "would prefer to know about it" for putting myself out in a substantial way, and my prefernce for what other people would want from me. Just to be clear, no one is denying you have a right to private self denial in service of others, but you did ask about how people react to it.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-21 08:42 am (UTC)That leaves out my responsibility to myself to act in what I consider to be an ethical manner. As a friend, I'd hope you would support me in that, including by giving me maximal information in a decision-making situation so that I can have the highest possible chance of making the best choice. It may not be what you think of as the best choice, but it's my choice; and if I end up choosing badly, I may not get fallout from you, but I will get some from myself, and you will certainly get fallout from me if I feel you've withheld information that could have led to me making what I feel is the better choice. For heaven's sake, give me the information and then argue with me if you think I'll come to the wrong conclusion based on it, but don't lie to me or hide things from me.
And yes, I do consider that a decision-making situation for me as well as you, since I could have asked other people for rides or used public transit if necessary. Maybe you didn't see that as called-for, but if I'd been fully informed, I very well might have. My idea of ethical behavior is that I accept the offer of help from the person who is sacrificing least for it, and that I do my best to return favors in kind (not because my friend requires compensation, but because it's what I feel is the fair thing for me to do). You didn't give me the opportunity to behave ethically, because you didn't let me know what you were sacrificing. Is that your idea of being a good and helpful friend, or just wanting to control the situation?
no subject
Date: 2004-04-24 11:41 pm (UTC)Hmm. That makes sense, and I'd probably want to do the same thing in your place. At that time, it didn't occur to me that that would be one of your motivations, or that you'd care -- in some sense, I underestimated you. I apologize for that.
I'd hope you would support me in that
As a friend, I want to support you in making ethical choices, just as I want others to support me likewise. So in the same set of circumstances, I'd inform you of the side-effects. Hopefully... generalizing that to all people is hard.
no subject
Date: 2004-04-24 11:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-04-25 12:47 am (UTC)