Inclusion vs. safety

[jay]

Pondering my recent reactions to a couple of events... it occurs to me one reason why I have strong emotions around inclusion/exclusion... whether in online discussions (paranoia about being filtered out of things) or real-life (conversations or social events). It goes back to the schoolyard... for a five-year period, conversations that I wasn't a part of had a way of leading to getting physically attacked, or other highly-unpleasant experiences. Later, it automatically meant that I was being laughed at or derided as weird in some way.

Activities and conversations where I was part of the dialogue or activity... were safe. So I joined a lot of student organizations in HS, broadening my social network there. Likewise at MIT. Driven in part by subconscious safety needs.

Behavior that looks rather paranoid as an adult, or hyper-sensitivity to not being part of some activity or conversation, once were driven by reality... but nowadays my friends are unlikely to be planning something harsh or humiliating in my absence. Or thinking about me at all. So I am going to let go of some of these reflexive reactions...

Comments

[geekchick]

nowadays my friends are unlikely to be planning something harsh or humiliating in my absence. Or thinking about me at all.

You're correct on the first part, not so much on the second.

[dangerpudding.livejournal.com]

Agreed. You think about your friends, right? We think about you, too. That's part of being friends :).

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Well... it is easier to assume It's Not About Me, if they're not thinking about me, but I need to let go in either case :).

[mhw.livejournal.com]

my friends are unlikely to be planning something harsh or humiliating in my absence

Correct. Friends don't behave like that. I can't speak for you, but for me trust is a huge component of friendship. Pretty much by definition, my friends are the people that I can, and do, trust.

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

Yup. My real friends tend to shower me with goodness, whether it's to my face or behind my back. Brian's friends are no less real.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I have no reason to think that my friends ever shower me with *anything* behind my back, except perhaps frustration...

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I know -- and I have no idea whether it's wilful ignorance, actual blindess to what's around you, or something else entirely.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I have, unfortunately, lots of history of seeming-friends turning on me as soon as it was advantageous to them, socially or otherwise. Another long-term response... so while I'll generally trust my friends, there's always a tiny element wary of betrayal.

paranoia about being filtered out of things

[p3aches.livejournal.com]

Two things come to mind.
1. People have a right to choose what they share with you and what they don't. What folks choose not to share is about their choice and their feelings not about you. For me personally when folks choose not to share something with me I chalk it up to that person feeling like its private or very personal. I tend to feel really good about what people do choose to share because they could have chosen not to at any time. For me it makes what people do share all the more valuable/ meaningful.

2. I frequently spend lots of time not in contact at every moment with friends, not sharing every thought or feeling that crosses my mind. That does not mean that my friends do not come to mind frequently, or that I am thinking unhealthy things about them. What it does mean is, I think there is a flow to how much time I benefit from being occupied with things about friends and being occupied with things in my own life. When I am overly occupied with things going on in my friend’s lives, it makes me wonder, “What am I avoiding in my own life?”

many hugs T

Re: paranoia about being filtered out of things

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

In (1)... I tend to share most everything with my friends, varying mostly in the level of detail given. That's my choice. If I'm open and my friend is less open about their life, or is actively keeping secrets from me... that is their choice. I can either choose to share less with them until we are equally opaque to each other, or accept the imbalance (and feel periodically wary around them).

In (2)... I certainly don't spend lots and lots of time dwelling on things in my friends lives -- that I'm not also involved in somehow.

[knkdyke.livejournal.com]

This sounds a lot like some of the "stuff" I'm dealing with right now. After a 2 year battle about polyamory, my partner finally agreed to give it a try, and then we realized that our ideas of polyamory were very different.

My ideal poly situation has always been a sort of combination of inclusive model with primary/secondary recognition. I'm not sure if that makes sense.

It seems that she was thinking in terms of a much more exclusive model, where she gets something "just for her" and I get something "just for me". As it turns out, I have some really serious issues with that.

It has become apparent that I have some big issues with an exclusive model, ranging from safety concerns very much like yours, to a childhood feeling of being constantly "left out, ignored and unwanted", to a basic belief in inclusivity as a spiritual model.

I'm working on some of those issues now, though I'm not sure that working on them is going to change my basic beliefs.

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

The question I have on something like this is, well, are those big issues really issues, per se, or do you just view poly differently and how you view it is okay?

From my perspective, making choices out of fear or insecurity wouldn't be a place I'd want to start out from. But I think having inclusivity as a spiritual model makes sense, and has its own reasons that can be positive.

I guess what I'm saying is that I hope you find out what you really want and it's healthy and good for you -- and don't end up changing what works for you to how your partner views polyamory for the wrong reasons.

[knkdyke.livejournal.com]

Briefly, the biggest issues are not how we "view" polyamory, but how we wanted to practice it. It was very difficult for me to see her view, and her plan, and incorporate it with mine. I tried to change my view, and consent to her way of doing things, but it just didn't work for me. It didn't *feel* right. I went back and forth, feeling like a hypocrite and a fraud, spiralling down into turmoil, before I finally broke, bringing everything to a screeching halt.

At the beginning of this ... umm.... transitional phase, I believe that I was making pronouncements and decisions based on fear and insecurity. The problem was, I wasn't even sure where those fears and insecurities were coming from. I was terribly afraid of being left out, ignored, unwanted and unwelcomed, and ultimately abandoned.

In a very short time, a lot of things have become clearer to me. Some of this included a recalled memory that I didn't even know was there. I have a much better view of my own insecurities and where they come from now than I did before.

Knowing them, however, doesn't cure them. I know that someday I will be "past" my issues, but right now I need to acknowledge them and respect my own limits, just as I would respect the limits of others. That's very important to me right now.

I am determined to figure out what works for me, and also try to make room for what my partner needs and wants out of a relationship. Ultimately, there may come a time when I have to decide whether what works for me and what works for her can be done together at all. If that time comes, I'm prepared to make that decision, but I am not prepared to abandon my spiritual principles in a compromise.

Wow... I just wrote a short novel in response to this, and instantly clarified a lot of what was rolling around in my head. I want to thank you, so much, for giving me the opportunity to do that, simply by questioning and offering your perspective.

I think that what I wrote is better suited to my own journal than as a response. Please, feel free to check my journal for it. It's not quite finished yet, but when it is, I will make it a public post.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

I prefer inclusivity strongly over overlapping exclusivities as spiritual and social models. Decoupled models... fail to recognize network interconnectedness, I feel.

[knkdyke.livejournal.com]

I agree completely... and since "interconnectedness" is what I'm really going for in a poly relationship, it seems counterproductive to undermine it.

[sinboy.livejournal.com]

If you need help with the letting go aspect, and want to talk about it, let me know.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Your perspective could be useful... thanks.

[frankenboob.livejournal.com]

One of the hardest things to do in life is to let go of the mental crap from childhood/peers/primary school. Looking at the jackasses in my kids schools & equating them to the jackasses I went to school with, I realize that I let them have too much power over me. And it also makes me wonder why some children are allowed to get away with some pretty damaging stuff. They are not *just being boys* or girls or kids or whatever. They are being destructive, on many levels. OKay... off my soapbox. It's 1 p.m. and I haven't made breakfast yet. Oops.

Anyway... please remind yourself, Jay, that you are around people who CHOOSE to be around you... not only that, they WANT to be in your life. I know that Pat would not purposely hurt you in any manner. I hope you know that too.

Happy early Father's Day. :)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Pat has hurt me before, even recently, so it is not unreasonable for it to happen again... other people around me also hurt me. Some very recently. I can't assume anything, really.

[frankenboob.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you've been hurt. I'm also sorry that Pat has been hurt. I'm glad you're both getting help & hope for the best for the both of you.

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry you had to go through so many negative experiences as a child. I can see where having people discuss or partially discuss events you aren't invited to or privvy to instill a sense of paranoia in you that those discussions are about you or preparation to attack you. Those schoolyard bullies were just that, though -- schoolyard bullies. They weren't your friends, and they weren't the community at large.

If they continued their rather violent and antisocial behaviour, chances are they later went on to be hooked on drugs, incarcerated, and bagging groceries in the local 7-11. Either that or they became politicians. But I digress...

You're not in school anymore unless you want to be. In school, you didn't get a choice as to who you would surround yourself with and what people you wanted to interact with. Today, grounding yourself in the present and being responsible for your own choices: You have the freedom to choose to spend time around people you trust and relax in the knowledge that any decision made to not invite you does not mean people you trust are destined to beat you up.

One thing I've noticed is that I've seen you get protective of others when they express to you that they have felt left out or excluded from some experience or event. A number of times I know it has happened with me when I've expressed disappointment or hurt over it -- and when that happens, often it seems as if you get more upset over my lack of inclusion than I myself do.

Not everyone feels left out or excluded for the same reasons, and if there is anyone making the decision to exclude me, it's possible they aren't doing it for the same reasons your childhood tormentors had for leaving you out.

In fact, a number of times I have asked other people to invite me to sex parties but not expect me to attend. I might change my mind at some point. But I excluded myself because I decided I wasn't comfortable at them at the time. To the outside observer, it may have looked like I wasn't invited. I was invited, I just decided not to go.

I just wanted to point that observation out, because it's been on my mind lately but hadn't really solidified until you posted this entry.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

That's true... seeing others around me excluded triggers a protective response. Not quite as much as being jointly confronted by a mugger, say, but similar. "How dare they do that to [friend]?" is a frequent part of my internal dialogue, one that I actually share much less often than it occurs. But I do tend to associate social selectivity *of any sort* as the flip side of abuse, either emotional or (improbably) physical.

[firecat]

I really like the stuff you've been writing lately.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks... wish I could say likewise (wry grin).

[kai-ta-loipa.livejournal.com]

This kind of reaction is a difficult one to let go of, but also a brave one to attempt. I wish I could come up with something comfortable or insightful to say... but I hope you're able to do this. You seem far too well-loved to have worries like this.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks... it will be hard, because this is unilateral disarmament in an area where I *know* I will continue to be wounded.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Behavior that looks rather paranoid as an adult, or hyper-sensitivity to not being part of some activity or conversation, once were driven by reality

Which is, of course, the foundation for any coping mechanism that has failed to work. It was created at a time when it *did* work. But it's like trying to put on your gym shorts from seventh grade before going to work out at the adult gym - you, the world, or both have outgrown the need for it, so it hurts instead of helping.

Good insight. Oh, and what geekchick said in the first comment. I agree absolutely.

[kiya]

papersky has been known to comment 'The hardest thing to put down is a shield you don't need anymore.' Or something to that effect.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Makes sense... it feels like unilateral disarmament. Bare and unprotected...

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Um... I can still wear those physical shorts, although they're tight... I wore a jersey from 25 years ago to a party this afternoon ;-).

That said, the mechanism gets in the way socially... but is sometimes useful at work.

[griffen.livejournal.com]

Yes, but as you point out, they're tight. Meaning uncomfortable, no?