cleaner, this way

[jay]

patgreene has a slight tear in her posterior cruciate ligament, and a slight tear in another left knee ligament, but neither will require surgery.

She is hobbling around, now... could use a cane, is in pain, but can now drive for short periods. And then we will have survived this latest crisis without any outside help at all...

Comments

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

it didn't mean that I was less than adult

(nods) OTOH, moving is something that is obviously much greater than any one person can handle alone, so there's no expectation of self-reliance. One needs either friends or a moving company.

Even interdependence sounds like it includes elements of dependence, and hence loss of control.

I think that might not have been clear in your original posts.

Agreed, it wasn't clear. But that's also because it did not occur to me that others would see those posts and offer assistance... they were "life scrapes right now, for these reasons" posts, not asking for anything.

Monday... we'll see. patgreene has some mobility now, so we may be able to just work through things here.

And... I already often feel like I'm running a net deficit, that people are being nice to me just by tolerating my presence or existence in their midst. Adding too much additional bother to that could make me a nuisance and cause the community to cast me away.

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

And... I already often feel like I'm running a net deficit, that people are being nice to me just by tolerating my presence or existence in their midst. Adding too much additional bother to that could make me a nuisance and cause the community to cast me away.

Hugs.

Why this again, now? Does it ever go away, even for a few minutes?

I think that the community will accept you more strongly if you ask for help in a very specific way, and then accept that help. IME, people want to be asked for help, and people want to help other people. I feel closer to someone after I have given zir assistance with something. It doesn't make me feel superior or one-up on points. It makes me feel good, and it makes me feel connected with another person.

As I wrote in another comment, I'm writing this as much for my benefit as yours. I'm tired of thinking I have to do everything myself, but it's so hard to break that habit.

Both of our religions talk about the importance of service, in different ways. You and I shouldn't be the only people who are allowed to serve.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Granted that other people should be allowed to serve, but there are plenty of others needing help, too.

will accept you more strongly if you ask for help in a very specific way, and then accept that help
That might be true, but requires two actions (asking for something directly, and being intentionally-weak enough to accept help) that are quite difficult for me. I have a strong, almost-arrogant streak that tells me that *other people* might need help, but I'm somehow above that. And don't *need* anyone, per se.

This probably means just that I've been lucky enough thus far in life to avoid any really terrible crises, but (shrug).

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

(nods) OTOH, moving is something that is obviously much greater than any one person can handle alone, so there's no expectation of self-reliance. One needs either friends or a moving company.

It's a matter of degree. Juggling the needs of 3 boys, an injured spouse, and a demanding job is *hard*. No one is doubting that you'll somehow manage - but you don't need to get to the point of breaking yourself before people deem you worthy of being helped. Sometimes we simply see that someone is struggling under a load and we want go and lighten it for them. No one begrudges you that. The people who care about you are happier to be able to hold a part of your burden than to sit apart with the knowledge that you are alone in pain.

Even interdependence sounds like it includes elements of dependence, and hence loss of control.

*Grin* Why, yes it does. This week I had a merry scavenger hunt for an item that I'd asked someone to find "a very safe place" for (they did indeed find a very safe, and very hidden spot for it, and we had a good laugh together when I finally asked them to reveal it). But I value the presence and support of the community far more than I value having exact control over where everything is.

Sometimes giving up control - and uptightness - is a good thing. I have definite control freak tendencies when I'm stressed, and people like me better when I give over the control at those times.

And... I already often feel like I'm running a net deficit, that people are being nice to me just by tolerating my presence or existence in their midst. Adding too much additional bother to that could make me a nuisance and cause the community to cast me away.

Asking for help is not being a nuisance, when you ask freely and when people are welcome to say yes or no. Saying that you could use a hand will not push people away. We are able to maintain our own boundaries, and we will not resent you for what you ask, because we will not give to the point of neglecting ourselves.

You do run the risk of pushing people away when you willfully ignore how much they care for you, and are there for you. You do run the risk of pushing people away when you say you have no help despite having been offered it. You do run the risk of pushing people away when you don't let them in.

You are spending so damn much energy refuting a bunch of our words this week. You are smart enough to find logical-sounding things to say in response to everything we say, until we lose the energy to argue anymore. But you are outsmarting yourself, because what you are doing is turning away the very love and support that you desire. Your fear that it won't exist is blinding you to the fact that it does.

Let us *in*, Jay - a gracious "Yes, please, I could use a hand, and I thank you" will please us so much more than your repeated refrain of "No, I don't need anything, and why would anyone want to be here for me anyway?"

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Dependence ==> loss of control -->vulnerability --> likelihood of getting hurt. Anything that requires dependence on others, on a personal level, is dangerous and unreliable.

[As an aside, this is why I usually make a lousy team member, work-wise -- I do much better as either a project leader or a lone-wolf researcher.]

Asking for *anything* for myself is a bad idea and to be avoided as much as possible. Not depending on others to defend their boundaries, but rather to pre-emptively defend them for those others (by staying far back from the boundaries).

And specifically, I acknowledge that several offers of help have been reiterated... I'm referring them to Pat at this point, so I don't have to be involved in that loop. Figuring that if she hadn't trashed her knee, I wouldn't be in this position anyway...

To survive, I have to be able to carry on without any love or support, because one never knows when those things will disappear.

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

I think it's better to taste love for a while, even though it might go away, then to live forever without it. Lots in life is transient, but we are richer for relishing what's there while we can.

[geekchick]

I'm referring them to Pat at this point, so I don't have to be involved in that loop. Figuring that if she hadn't trashed her knee, I wouldn't be in this position anyway...

*facepalm* I'm reasonably sure that Pat's unhappy enough about being in pain and incapacitated already, I'd guess that comments like this one that make it sound like you blame her for inconveniencing you are likely to help anything.

To survive, I have to be able to carry on without any love or support, because one never knows when those things will disappear.

If you actively work to push those things away though, you end up with a much better idea of when they'll disappear. From what I've seen, you've got a lot of generous and caring friends locally who would be happy to give you love and support if you'd just let them from time to time.