cleaner, this way
Aug. 6th, 2005 01:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jaypatgreene has a slight tear in her posterior cruciate ligament, and a slight tear in another left knee ligament, but neither will require surgery. She is hobbling around, now... could use a cane, is in pain, but can now drive for short periods. And then we will have survived this latest crisis without any outside help at all...
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I do so ramble on so forgive me..
Date: 2005-08-06 09:23 am (UTC)I feel quite sorry for her. And to do injury to two knees? OUCH! I did not have kids at home like she has pof course me being a teenager, and it sure ruined my supposedly best summer of my life :(
I cannot imagine trying to take care of a family hurt like that. Especially mine who are all spoiled rotten from me taking care of them/waiting on them hand and foot. It is something I enjoy I must say taking care of them but sometimes when you are down it gets frustrating they do not step up like I would expect them too.
I have had two back operations and had been out of commision for quite a while before and after with both of them and know how hard it is to take care of a family so I surely sympathize with her. Give her my best.
That is good to hear you all have chipped in to help her :)
I have read your wife's lj before and am a fan of her writings :)
Her Madame Verdi is it called? has quite stumped me as well as intriguing me at the same time :)
Re: I do so ramble on so forgive me..
Date: 2005-08-06 07:20 pm (UTC)James is beginning to step forward and help, and Pat is getting a cane today, but otherwise I have to pick up the difference. Which has meant a messier house, backlog of laundry, more meals out and being censured at work for missing deadlines this week.
Thanks for sharing your experience... and I hope that your teenagers shape up ;).
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Date: 2005-08-06 01:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 07:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 04:03 pm (UTC)I know this is a regular issue dealt with around here, but I think it's worth pointing out that this line makes me feel pretty awful. I already feel bad about having had to cancel out on taking the boys out yesterday, this kinda feels like rubbing salt in that.
It's also worth noting that as far as I saw, you never asked for help. I offered it, repeatedly, and other people noted that you could or should ask for it - but you never did. People can't know that you need help, or what you need, if you don't ask.
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Date: 2005-08-06 04:51 pm (UTC)I hope your head feels better.
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Date: 2005-08-06 06:14 pm (UTC)I'm still up for doing a GA trip with the boys - I'll e-mail you about that.
It's been a pleasure being support for you, and getting to be better friends with you. You're nifty. :)
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Date: 2005-08-06 07:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 08:03 pm (UTC)And how did they collectively disappear? I still haven't heard, to my recollection, if you wanted to accept
My offer didn't disappear it still stands. *puzzled*
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Date: 2005-08-06 08:33 pm (UTC)When I most needed help was in the first few days after Pat's accident, when she was incapacitated and had to remain in bed or otherwise reclined with her leg up, while the kids were running around yelling and trash and dishes and laundry were piling up. Now that it is the weekend, I'm home and can cover those things.
And I can hardly expect friends to help with these things... my local sweeties didn't volunteer, even the one who *likes* dishwashing.
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Date: 2005-08-06 11:29 pm (UTC)I'll fuss about the second paragraph.....my remembrance of your requests indicated an expression of feeling overwhelmed but not saying, "I really need help now." If you do not ask for exactly what you need, you can't receive.
And if you can't expect friends to help with these things then you aren't allowing your friends to be as generous as they are.
I have one parent figure who will loan you money or offer you help but always with strings attached or an expectation of balance maintained. I have learned to never ask that parent for assistance of any kind because the burden increases as time goes on rather than the balance being "paid off". I have another who gives freely from her heart, she gives if she can because she can without expecting payment, either monetary or otherwise, to be made. It is her gift of service.
I would far rather live my life in the latter category, both in giving and receiving. I won't keep a tally sheet. I refuse to. Knowing that another person does so makes it harder to be able to ask for or offer assistance. Doesn't mean I don't want to but it does mean it makes it more difficult.
As for your final paragraph.....*shakes head*.....too much to say and none of it my business.
My offer still stands, without strings attached. If you think you can't ask for my help without having a balance against it first or worrying about "paying me back", well, I guess that's your choice.
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Date: 2005-08-07 04:30 am (UTC)If I remember it correctly, Pat's college's motto is apropo:
"Non ministrari, sed ministrae", or "not to be helped, but to help others" as an overall ideal. Nonetheless, life is imperfect, and sometimes I find myself in a bind.
I give to others as an act of service, as a way of expressing love. But that only works if someone actually needs help, and I strive to avoid needing help.
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Date: 2005-08-07 06:06 am (UTC)I'd disagree. I had 20 people come and help me with my move the other week, and it didn't mean that I was less than adult.
The wider society tends to draw poles of "dependent" vs "independent," but there's also interdependence, which means relying on each other at different times, and letting that be a happy process of community building instead of a calculated balance-sheet type of thing. Which leads to your point of:
Not to mention incurring an ongoing debt to those providing help, unless one has first done enough for them to maintain a rough balance.
I surely will try to be there in kind next time any of the folks who helped me need a hand... but it's not a weighty pressured thing. I know that they're not looking at me to see, "When will Geri pay us back for our hard work on her behalf?" They did it out of kindness.
When I most needed help was in the first few days after Pat's accident, when she was incapacitated and had to remain in bed or otherwise reclined with her leg up, while the kids were running around yelling and trash and dishes and laundry were piling up.
I think that might not have been clear in your original posts. You said that Pat would have 2 weeks of acute pain, 6 weeks of recovery time. So I - and perhaps others - got the impression that help would be needed over that longer 2-6 week duration, and we didn't rush. Had you said something like "I need someone to cook breakfast on Thursday and dinner on Friday," that might have given us the heads-up that more immediate help was what was needed.
Now that it is the weekend, I'm home and can cover those things.
Ok, so you have the weekend covered. Monday comes soon - what does your family need then?
Make an LJ post with a concrete list, with things such as "Pat will be home Monday from 1-4. In that time, she'd love help with taking out the trash and doing the dishes. On Tuesday evening, she could use a ride to the clinic and help making dinner." And so forth. That will allow people to look at what they are doing in those specific time slots.
There will likely be some time slots that get covered, and some that don't. For the ones that don't - it doesn't mean that people don't care - it just means that they were busy then.
And I can hardly expect friends to help with these things... my local sweeties didn't volunteer, even the one who *likes* dishwashing.
Just because your sweeties are busy this week doesn't mean that others wouldn't be happy to step in. The one has nothing to do with the other.
It can be scary to ask for help, and to wonder if it will come, and to try to guess what it means if it doesn't come. But by not asking, you shut out the possibility of ever learning how much people care. I was awed that 20 people wanted to come help me move... but I'd never have learned just how ready people were to be there for me if I hadn't first put out that call for help.
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Date: 2005-08-07 08:44 am (UTC)(nods) OTOH, moving is something that is obviously much greater than any one person can handle alone, so there's no expectation of self-reliance. One needs either friends or a moving company.
Even interdependence sounds like it includes elements of dependence, and hence loss of control.
I think that might not have been clear in your original posts.
Agreed, it wasn't clear. But that's also because it did not occur to me that others would see those posts and offer assistance... they were "life scrapes right now, for these reasons" posts, not asking for anything.
Monday... we'll see.
And... I already often feel like I'm running a net deficit, that people are being nice to me just by tolerating my presence or existence in their midst. Adding too much additional bother to that could make me a nuisance and cause the community to cast me away.
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Date: 2005-08-07 11:42 am (UTC)Hugs.
Why this again, now? Does it ever go away, even for a few minutes?
I think that the community will accept you more strongly if you ask for help in a very specific way, and then accept that help. IME, people want to be asked for help, and people want to help other people. I feel closer to someone after I have given zir assistance with something. It doesn't make me feel superior or one-up on points. It makes me feel good, and it makes me feel connected with another person.
As I wrote in another comment, I'm writing this as much for my benefit as yours. I'm tired of thinking I have to do everything myself, but it's so hard to break that habit.
Both of our religions talk about the importance of service, in different ways. You and I shouldn't be the only people who are allowed to serve.
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Date: 2005-08-07 05:55 pm (UTC)will accept you more strongly if you ask for help in a very specific way, and then accept that help
That might be true, but requires two actions (asking for something directly, and being intentionally-weak enough to accept help) that are quite difficult for me. I have a strong, almost-arrogant streak that tells me that *other people* might need help, but I'm somehow above that. And don't *need* anyone, per se.
This probably means just that I've been lucky enough thus far in life to avoid any really terrible crises, but (shrug).
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Date: 2005-08-07 03:22 pm (UTC)It's a matter of degree. Juggling the needs of 3 boys, an injured spouse, and a demanding job is *hard*. No one is doubting that you'll somehow manage - but you don't need to get to the point of breaking yourself before people deem you worthy of being helped. Sometimes we simply see that someone is struggling under a load and we want go and lighten it for them. No one begrudges you that. The people who care about you are happier to be able to hold a part of your burden than to sit apart with the knowledge that you are alone in pain.
Even interdependence sounds like it includes elements of dependence, and hence loss of control.
*Grin* Why, yes it does. This week I had a merry scavenger hunt for an item that I'd asked someone to find "a very safe place" for (they did indeed find a very safe, and very hidden spot for it, and we had a good laugh together when I finally asked them to reveal it). But I value the presence and support of the community far more than I value having exact control over where everything is.
Sometimes giving up control - and uptightness - is a good thing. I have definite control freak tendencies when I'm stressed, and people like me better when I give over the control at those times.
And... I already often feel like I'm running a net deficit, that people are being nice to me just by tolerating my presence or existence in their midst. Adding too much additional bother to that could make me a nuisance and cause the community to cast me away.
Asking for help is not being a nuisance, when you ask freely and when people are welcome to say yes or no. Saying that you could use a hand will not push people away. We are able to maintain our own boundaries, and we will not resent you for what you ask, because we will not give to the point of neglecting ourselves.
You do run the risk of pushing people away when you willfully ignore how much they care for you, and are there for you. You do run the risk of pushing people away when you say you have no help despite having been offered it. You do run the risk of pushing people away when you don't let them in.
You are spending so damn much energy refuting a bunch of our words this week. You are smart enough to find logical-sounding things to say in response to everything we say, until we lose the energy to argue anymore. But you are outsmarting yourself, because what you are doing is turning away the very love and support that you desire. Your fear that it won't exist is blinding you to the fact that it does.
Let us *in*, Jay - a gracious "Yes, please, I could use a hand, and I thank you" will please us so much more than your repeated refrain of "No, I don't need anything, and why would anyone want to be here for me anyway?"
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Date: 2005-08-07 06:15 pm (UTC)[As an aside, this is why I usually make a lousy team member, work-wise -- I do much better as either a project leader or a lone-wolf researcher.]
Asking for *anything* for myself is a bad idea and to be avoided as much as possible. Not depending on others to defend their boundaries, but rather to pre-emptively defend them for those others (by staying far back from the boundaries).
And specifically, I acknowledge that several offers of help have been reiterated... I'm referring them to Pat at this point, so I don't have to be involved in that loop. Figuring that if she hadn't trashed her knee, I wouldn't be in this position anyway...
To survive, I have to be able to carry on without any love or support, because one never knows when those things will disappear.
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Date: 2005-08-07 08:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-08 05:55 am (UTC)*facepalm* I'm reasonably sure that Pat's unhappy enough about being in pain and incapacitated already, I'd guess that comments like this one that make it sound like you blame her for inconveniencing you are likely to help anything.
To survive, I have to be able to carry on without any love or support, because one never knows when those things will disappear.
If you actively work to push those things away though, you end up with a much better idea of when they'll disappear. From what I've seen, you've got a lot of generous and caring friends locally who would be happy to give you love and support if you'd just let them from time to time.
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Date: 2005-08-07 11:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-07 05:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 05:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 07:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-06 05:31 pm (UTC)I hope that I understand you saying, "And then we will have survived this latest crisis without reallying needing to have any outside help at all.
Otherwise, why did any of us offer and not receive follow-up as to when and what.
I know your heart is good and it is difficult for you to ask for assistance so I'm hoping I read this correctly....
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Date: 2005-08-06 07:30 pm (UTC)And I followed-up with several people via email, as far as addresses and timing went. Life intervened, in a general sense, and since we're intact here it is probably better that others' energy and time went into more productive and useful pursuits.
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Date: 2005-08-06 06:04 pm (UTC)And then we will have survived this latest crisis without any outside help at all...
My offer of bringing by food still stands, as does the offer of a group outing to take the boys geocaching. I haven't been able to follow through on any of the above yet because I've had a slew of prior commitments that took up most of my waking hours. But my schedule will be easing soon, and I'll email Pat backchannel to see what day she'd like food brought by.
Meanwhile, perhaps Les and you can see what upcoming days you both have free for a geocaching outing with the boys, and when you let me know what the options are I'll look at my calendar and see which works for me as well. That'll be fun!
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Date: 2005-08-06 07:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-08-07 06:08 am (UTC)