jay | Must learn to be more selfish... maybe

I was pressed by our couples therapist last night... she went after

patgreene on staying-sick-to-draw-Brian's-attention, but spent a half hour challenging me on my focus. Which is external... around home, my motivations are "what's my duty and obligations? What can I do to help, or to fulfill the needs of Pat and the boys? What do they want me to do, or be?" I'm not there because I'm having fun or because I want to be there for myself, I'm being there to serve them. Even when they (or at least, Pat) doesn't want to be caretaken.

I was asked, point-blank, "what do you like? What would be enjoyable and fun for you? First in-general, and then later fun-with them-specifically?" Instead of viewing home as just another worksite... I often dread weekends because of the lack of anything to do, or accomplish. Nothing to fix, except home-improvement.

I don't know what I enjoy. What my preferences are. After 20 years of being focussed on fixing and supporting others, it is hard to look in the mirror.

Pressed again by the therapist, I had to admit that I just didn't think in hedonistic terms. Self-pleasure is far, far down on my priorities, other than some abstract things like sense-of-accomplishment. "Try to become like a 7-year-old and go play in the mud... can you let go, and do that? Just being in the moment, not looking ahead to the muddy laundry?"

I seem to have to justify everything in terms of either its benefit to others, or of avoiding future problems (like working out to stay fit... skating is rationalized similarly) and hence avoiding dependencies. I can't bring myself to be selfish -- not in the sense of doing something just for fun, just because I like it or it feels good. *Especially* not if that requires asking anything of others, thereby inconveniencing them or potentially owing them debts.

I've been willing to nominally serve others' needs, in order to maintain the surplus of emotional capital that gives me control over my own life. To ask, to owe a favor, is to be vulnerable and lose control. For me, it requires a huge amount of trust in the other person(s) and in their perceived competency, to be willing to accept gifts or assistance. Arguably, by not sharing myself on equal terms, I'm being selfish on some deeper level...

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this is going to sound kind of weird, but you "suffer" (bad term, I can't think of a better one) from PTSD? The reason I ask, is that you could have been describing me. And when I used to see a counselor, that care-giver/control mentality is a characteristic of people with PTSD - because in being the care-giver - and in being fiercely independant - and by putting yourself last, you are putting yourself in a position of feeling like you're in control.

For me putting myself last goes even farther back - in my case I spent years listening to my parents tell me that I wasn't good enough - of a daughter, of a friend, of a family member - that I only thought of myself and no one else. So I worked very very very hard at making sure that others came first. I didn't understand that I was only proving them more and more right with every effort I made at putting others first *chuckle* - but then where do you draw the line?

I *like* making others feel good - I *like* thinking of others first. But I also like feeling good myself - I like people surprising *me* for a change - doing something for me without me having to ask...but asking for that, well...it's a vicious cycle!

I don't really have much a point in this response other than to share thoughts since you got me thinking ;)

I've had that diagnosis tossed around, in the past... there were periods of past physical and sexual abuse between the ages of 8-13. But it isn't agreed whether the -SD manifests, or how strongly. The course of therapy recently started may shed more light, but I'm not tied to any particular diagnosis or outcome.

Still, that care-giver/control correlation is thought-provoking for me, as I hadn't seen that linked to PTSD before. Maybe others (past therapists?) have.

Then in your case, having that response amplified by your parents' pressure... ouch. But you're right, sometimes working hard at putting others first... IMO almost borders on arrogance.

I like people surprising *me* for a change - doing something for me without me having to ask...but asking for that, well...it's a vicious cycle!

Amen. It is joyous when it happens, almost overwhelms my defenses! But it almost never happens. One must actually ask for things... so it doesn't occur. Surprising me... heh, I've never had a birthday party, let alone any other surprises. Despite dropping the occasional broad hints to

patgreene...

And thanks for sharing these thoughts, they've redirected mine somewhat.

I've had it put to me that not accepting gifts (of time, of energy, of whatever) is false modesty, and that it's also mean. Think about how much pleasure you get out of helping others or giving to them. Why do you want to deny them the same pleasure out of helping you or giving to you? It took me a long time to admit that I didn't want anyone else to feel that good about themselves -- because if they did, they wouldn't need me anymore.

Being needed is... okay. Being wanted is INFINITELY preferable, however.

I'm glad you're doing this necessary work. *hugs*

Being *wanted*... is out of my control. It is subjective, determined by others. But being *useful* is just a matter of seizing opportunities and volunteering, things which can be managed myself.

I have no a priori reason to expect that others would want to help me or give to me... and while I don't consciously track what others owe me for services rendered (ugh!), at the same time it is scary to contemplate any kind of negative balance (dependency, even briefly).

because if they did, they wouldn't need me anymore

(nods) undoubtedly a factor somewhere between Pat and myself. If/when she gets completely healthy, she won't need me anymore and there'll be no reason for her to keep me around... a motivation that I've been fighting, internally.

Being *wanted*... is out of my control. It is subjective, determined by others. But being *useful* is just a matter of seizing opportunities and volunteering, things which can be managed myself.

The problem is, being "needed" gets you resented after a while. People generally don't like being dependent on others. It grates on them. And, yes, I mean submissives, too. The submissives who know how to submit also know what their own boundaries are, and they *choose* to submit rather than doing it because they feel they *have* to or else face ruin. I've had both kinds of submissive; the ones who lasted were the ones who didn't "need" me to dom them but instead *wanted* me to.

I have no a priori reason to expect that others would want to help me or give to me...

You also have no a priori reason NOT to expect that others would want to help you or give to you. I both want to help you and I want to give to you; I've had a crush on you ever since I met you, and you know that, I think. I would dearly love to be the one helping YOU for a change. Would you deny that to me, when you know how good it feels to be the giver?

when she gets completely healthy, she won't need me anymore and there'll be no reason for her to keep me around.

Actually, I think there'll be quite a few reasons to keep you around. The first and most important reason is called Brian1789. *smiles*

I have no a priori reason to expect that others would want to help me or give to me... and while I don't consciously track what others owe me for services rendered (ugh!), at the same time it is scary to contemplate any kind of negative balance (dependency, even briefly).

For me, this is the difference between dependance, and reliance. It's ok for me to be reliant on someone- to expect them to do what they've agreed to do, knowing that if I need to I can take care of it myself or do without. It's problematic to be dependant on someone- to *need* them to do something because I don't have the ability/resources/whatever to do it myself.

The difference between want and need. The knowledge that I *can* meet my own needs, even if I'd prefer not to, and be happier if I'm not.

It's ok to sometimes have the balance be a little tweaked for a while, it will come back. When my best friend and I were in high school, we would cover eachother financially when the other was short. We didn't track this, because we'd decided that it all evened out over time and we didn't want to fuss with it. We still do this sometimes when we're together. I think it's similar with non-obvious forms of giving and sharing- I don't track how many hugs I've initiated vs. they've initiated- it would be silly.

To ask, to owe a favor, is to be vulnerable and lose control.

I too struggle with this.

Arguably, by not sharing myself on equal terms, I'm being selfish on some deeper level...

Probably. As am I. "He who would give but not receive, enslaves the person he would relieve." I forget who said that.

There's also: "Please adjust own oxygen mask before assisting others."

It's one of my favorite metaphors. :)

I admired your surprise party and the scooter effort... I can imagine doing something like that myself, but never being on the receiving end (shudder).

Whoever said it... cute saying. Although I try to erase/delete any obligations that others might feel, usually by deriding or making light of the value of whatever I've given them. ;-)

Thank you. :) I can't imagine being on the receiving end, either. (I read some of your other comments, and I'm intrigued to note that I, too, cannot remember ever having a birthday party. Much less a surprise one!) I'd probably pass out!

Whoever said it... cute saying. Although I try to erase/delete any obligations that others might feel, usually by deriding or making light of the value of whatever I've given them. ;-)

Sure, I do that too. If nothing else, I don't want to give a gift and then have it turn into an obligation. It was a gift! I wanted to give it! It should be a positive thing!

The quote also hints at the dependence idea -- if I'm "helping" one person a huge amount and don't accept any help in return, then at some point (I'm not sure where) it goes from me being a friend into me growing a barnacle. Not that I think I've ever done this, but that's one of the things the quote says to me.

yup, ditto.

Must learn to be more selfish... maybe

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