an observation

[jay]

From a comment of mine in another journal... my own internal model still equates expression-of-interest = sexual-harrassment, not something I'd easily do. Presumed harmful to the other person until/unless proven otherwise. Consequently, in my life I've only set that model aside and made the first move once... the rest of the time, I've typically waited for the other person(s) to take that risk, or else mutually tip-toed laterally towards each other over the course of months.

Comments

[trinker.livejournal.com]

What's your definition of sexual harrassment?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Given above, sort-of... any unwanted expression-of-interest. I realize that that might sound circular...

[trinker.livejournal.com]

By defining sexual harrassment as you have, you've taken away the ability to describe the sort of menacing "unless you put out, I'll do damage to your career" that some people experience.

It's as if you've defined "capital offense" so broadly that brushing up against someone in a crowd situation is equivalent to brutal assault leading to death.

Sexual harrassment, in my own lexicon, is defined as sexual advances made in such a way that the advance is designed to be nearly impossible to turn down without harm to the object of the advance.

Now, you can argue that it's a sort of Schroedinger's situation, where asking at all changes the relationship, and saying "no" does affect the course of the relationship. But that's not the same as "if you don't say 'yes', I'll ruin your life".

[who-is-she.livejournal.com]

THere's also a couple other things, level of invasion of boundary, and repetition.. that factor in.

a friend of mine who worked in a foundry had one of the guys grab her crotch and say "I bet you would you bitch!" when she suggested she might like to be on the metal pouring team one day. A one time thing, but clearly invasive and clearly sexual harrassment. I know this guy had been 'rude' to her before.. but never in a sexual way, and never physically.

also, if you make a gesture, whatever, a hug, asking someone out, and the person says 'no'... and you keep doing it.. that is harrassment... because it is ignoring the person's stated boundary. It is requiring that person to say 'no' over and over again.

I agree with what you've said above. Thought I'd add these other nuances. (ahem)

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Unwanted attention, vs. abusive boundary violations... like a somewhat-amusing small leashed monkey begging for peanuts, vs. the Dallas gorilla.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Good point, there's not room for differentiation that way. And I'd really see unwanted advances as more of a nuisance or inconvenience for the recipient, not an assault or threat. Perhaps... "unwanted interest" = "sexual inconvenience", more of a little-brother to the criminal-level version?

And I've found that reliably, asking at all changes the relationship for the worse. Shucks, if I ask friends about *platonic* activities, they start acting wary and weird around me... ;-).

[kai-ta-loipa.livejournal.com]

I've typically waited for the other person(s) to take that risk

So if someone comes on to you not knowing if you'll like it, it's okay, but if you do the same, it's sexual harassment?

I would opt for risk, personally. The sting of rejection is overall less damaging than the pangs of uncertainty.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

A personal sting is fine, but inflicting something on others concerns me.

And I'm inconsistent, admittedly... if I come on to someone, I'm being a nuisance or an embarrassment to them, as I see it. In the converse case... (a) it almost never happens, and (b) the brief awkwardness doesn't bother me, and it could almost be flattering.