Outside the village...
Oct. 22nd, 2004 08:37 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayI'm frankly envious of parents with community support... for example, dawnd and akienm are able to find a series of sitters for Allegra so that they could go to a weekend workshop in LA. Without having to, say, fly in Dawn's mother from back East... it's great for them, and I think they'll add a lot to that workshop. But I know that I couldn't do the same thing, and that Pat and I are pretty much on our own as far as child-raising goes... no net, here. When crises have hit, my only option has been to fly in one or the other grandmothers for a while, and/or take vacation time and stay home as well.
Still, that's a natural consequence of not being a part of any particular community, other than sort of tolerated on the fringes... I have only myself to reproach, arguably, for not giving enough or conforming sufficiently.
dawnd and akienm are able to find a series of sitters for Allegra so that they could go to a weekend workshop in LA. Without having to, say, fly in Dawn's mother from back East... it's great for them, and I think they'll add a lot to that workshop. But I know that I couldn't do the same thing, and that Pat and I are pretty much on our own as far as child-raising goes... no net, here. When crises have hit, my only option has been to fly in one or the other grandmothers for a while, and/or take vacation time and stay home as well. Still, that's a natural consequence of not being a part of any particular community, other than sort of tolerated on the fringes... I have only myself to reproach, arguably, for not giving enough or conforming sufficiently.
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One of the many fears I have...
Date: 2004-10-22 03:44 pm (UTC)Re: One of the many fears I have...
Date: 2004-10-22 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 04:04 pm (UTC)i don't think we (being myself and the rest of the greater poly community) consider you and pat on the "finges" of our community. do you? because if you do, then maybe you should consider working on that perception!!!!
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Date: 2004-10-22 04:19 pm (UTC)(IOW, Jay, I know you *like* to feel like an outsider, but this example isn't holding up to my analysis)
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:14 am (UTC)LOL... is that what it is? now i understand things a bit better!!!!
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-23 01:40 am (UTC)(remembers when Pat ruptured and bled all over the floor, or having to clean 8" deep incisions while watching kids... *shudder*)
And the evidence doesn't support your analysis, I think.
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:51 am (UTC)you've obviously got access to much more evidence than I do.
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Date: 2004-10-23 04:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-23 08:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 06:16 pm (UTC)I think it's realy good that your kids get so much time with their family, including having extended family care for them. Everything costs something. Even though you feel having more personal hands on care of your kids costs you jet setting trips to workshops in LA..... you know that your kids are truly well cared for. That is a very good thing.
Incidentally, I truly enjoyed having your kids here. :)
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:41 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 04:15 pm (UTC)Speaking for myself, I don't offer to sit for kids until I have gotten an opportunity to know them. I have not, for example, offered to babysit for anyone other than y'all (but I did help other friends find sitters), as there aren't any kids that I've met more than twice.
I suspect that you *could* manage to arrange childcare through using your friends, though it might take more effort, again, because of the volume of kids (and 6 year age range). You might, for instance, have James spend the night with a friend one night, while a sitter came over for Kevin and David. I know Dawn has expressed a willingness to have Kevin stay over there, and that both Sarah and Dana have expressed a willingness to sit for your kids (as have I).
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-23 09:50 pm (UTC)What gets in the way is the distance we live apart.
Your family is more than welcome at any of the things we plan which include children. If Pat is alone and would like help with one or more of the boys, all she has to do is let us know. Else wise we'll assume the person who brought the child is doing fine.
Helping to chisel away at the *outsider* bubble...
Date: 2004-10-22 04:26 pm (UTC)Re: Helping to chisel away at the *outsider* bubble...
Date: 2004-10-23 01:45 am (UTC)Re: Helping to chisel away at the *outsider* bubble...
Date: 2004-10-23 07:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 04:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-23 01:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-24 04:40 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 05:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 05:04 pm (UTC)Look,
We also have three kids like you do. You have to take that into consideration.
And, *ahem*, I don't know you that well but I've read your journal for quite some time now and I'm going to be very direct with you. Please don't take it with anger or as anger. There is care woven in here right with the bluntness.
Stop. Stop complaining about something that everyone keeps telling you isn't so. Your friends are telling you they are your friends and not tolerating you and you keep throwing that compassion and care and friendship back in their faces by telling them you are only tolerated.
If you keep it up, it will be "only tolerated". Open you home up to friends and keep it friends. Don't worry about being poly and finding partners, make friends. Plan events to the park or a kid friendly place and then invite the world along. Stop sitting there complaining about how you never get out, never get to know people, never get to do anything and get out there and make it happen.
Don't assume I don't know what it is like for you. I have a musician husband who is more poly than I am. It has been a struggle for me as I'm guessing it has been for Pat. We have three kids. Papa is often gone at rehearsals and concerts. BUT, we divide the work evenly at home, we make sure we take care of each other first and we actively create space in which we can get out or have people in without always having to exclude our kids. The kids are a part of our lives, as parents.
I know this may seem harsh and I don't mean it to seem so. But sometimes I just feel like I have to go ahead and be blunt with someone and this "feels" like that time.
I was glad you guys came last time to Wine & Song. Remember, it *is* a kid friendly event. Yes, after a certain time, nudity occurs. If we know this is a problem for a family, we hold it till about 9/9:30/10 and then warn people that it about to become "that time". If you have a child with special needs, all we ask is that if it is the kind of thing that can impact other kids, that you keep an eye on the situation. Busy Family brings their kids.
Want to stop being on the fringers, stop putting yourself there.
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Date: 2004-10-22 07:16 pm (UTC)One of the reason taking D any where is an issue is that he does need frequent monitoring, and I find I spend all my time doing so.
Brian is being generous here -- most of the obstacles to doing what you suggest come from *me*, even if he is gracious enough not to say so. So he looks wistfully at things which, in some sense, I am keeping him from having.
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Date: 2004-10-22 07:32 pm (UTC)When the time is right, I've got several alternatives to offer in the hopes that one might be a workable solution.
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Date: 2004-10-22 07:51 pm (UTC)But if people know what to expect and are willing to make allowances, you might have a chance to reach out some more. And if people know what to expect, nothing is there to say they can't stand with you and visit rather than expecting you to come to them when you need to be watching one of your children.
I have made it clear that even though I don't have a child with special needs there are times when they are hyper or in an environment where I need to keep a close watch and if someone(s) wants to visit with me they'll have to come over to where I am. People have been very understanding and *want* to give in that way. It costs them so little and gives us all so much.
I know, from having three, that I am constantly feeling like their activity, noise and behavior may be suspect and annoying to others. It has taken me a bit of time but I have finally realized that my friends who love me as a friend are honest with me about loving my kids, seeing their behavior as just fine and being willing to hang with me when I'm with my kids or to let me know if it is just too much for them at the moment.
Most often, my fears were far worse than anybody else's perceptions.
You won't know that till you give it a chance.
As for Brian and you, you both give and you both take. The dynamic has seemed strange from here in LJ world wherein it seems often to be done with thanks but also with begrudgement. There are always sixteen sides to every story. I'm not privy to the more private parts of your journal, but I'll gently and caringly still stand firm in that Brian needs to let go of his perception and start accepting what people say to him about being cared for and part of their circle. The more he protests these very same encouragements that he asks for, the more true they may very well become and the less often given. If he feels so much less a part of a community, he's going to have to take action to make himself and/or his family a part of that and willingly, trustingly receive that acceptance when it is given.
Finally, those obstacles you speak of as coming from you. Like I've said elsewhere, I've been a reluctant poly in the past. Sometimes still am though it is hard to tell. You have to set your boundaries. He has to set his. You both have to state your needs. And then you have to find a gentle place in between where you can both be happy. One of the blessings I have had in
I do wish you both the best of luck as you sort this stuff out.
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Date: 2004-10-23 09:00 pm (UTC)Admittedly, that is work to really hear that and let it in.
A large part of feeling marginalized is not adhering to poly-community social norms... not dating anyone locally, no local relationship ties. Being overtly Christian in a mostly-pagan group. Not doing SF cons or renfaires. All of these things feel like invisible barriers that keep myself (and Pat, I think, but I'll let her speak for herself) on the periphery. Even if others don't necessarily see those things as barriers.
For example, at W&S last night, I get in the hot tub, where there are seven or eight people. I'm the only person sitting alone -- I had to leave in order to get a hug (wry grin). Why? I don't think I'm a pariah, rather that everyone else there then was relaxed in casual physical contact with each other -- because they'd all dated interconnectedly, or shared space at parties, or were close friends with benefits, etc. I was outside of that network, hence was not (literally) embraced in the same way. That's not whining -- I had a good time at W&S, and I respect others' boundaries, and I think I'm an attractive (and cuddly) person in my own right. But it is illustrative of the small separations -- others may be oblivious of these, but I notice them.
These underlying interconnections also, IMO, affect others' willingness to accept and help with kids and in crises.
Conversely, in our church community, I'm seen as having "lifestyle issues" by our clergy, such that I'm not allowed to teach classes anymore or run for the vestry. Poly is considered far less acceptable than LGBT -- we had a lesbian Senior Warden (chair of the vestry) last year. Pat has felt at times that she's had to choose between her service in that community and staying in a relationship with me, and she is likewise no longer called upon to help there. So I feel marginalized in that community, and somewhat guilty -- not for what/who I am, but for placing Pat in a tough spot there.
Too mainstream to fit easily in poly groups, too weird to be comfortably accepted in our church -- I feel in limbo, frequently, in-between.
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Date: 2004-10-22 10:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 10:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 06:14 pm (UTC)Many things are a lot more scary when you know no one's going to pull your fat out of the fire but you. Retirement. Surgery. Kids. I don't have children, but I think I know what you mean about going it alone.
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Date: 2004-10-23 01:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-23 01:57 am (UTC)Sometimes, when people do get lots of meaningful help from a community, it puzzles me almost as much as it would if I saw a lost flyer suddenly obtain a helpful copilot in the middle of the flight.
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Date: 2004-10-23 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-22 06:54 pm (UTC)I also like the idea of encouraging the oldest one to go out while you hire someone to stay with the younger ones, or to experiment with other combinations (such as taking one kid to run errands and see if the other two can cope on their own).
Are you (or is Pat) at all involved with a community of parents of special-needs kids? That might be the most productive place to network about finding additional babysitting, either by trading hours / setting up a co-op or by exchanging references for suitable adults to hire.
It's silly to reproach yourself for the situation with your church community. If you ever do have a family crisis and ask for help, you might be surprised how much help you get from that direction as well as others.
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Date: 2004-10-23 08:31 pm (UTC)I wasn't reproaching myself about the church community... at the time, I was annoyed with them. Pat had put in hundreds of hours of volunteer work, taught classes, carried meals and visited others during crises... but when she had a tough time, the response was minimal for her. Granted, pastoral care is not a strong suit of that parish, but... I did wonder then if the lack of interest in helping Pat pertained to my being seen as too weird or strange, but dismissed the thought.
Babysitters
Date: 2004-10-22 08:54 pm (UTC)My household has 4 children. Yes we make it places without our children. Often this means ONE of us stays home. We seldom go out as 3 adults and no children. We also have the added benifit that we've got housemates who are family who we can ask to watch our kids.
When I've put out needing babysitters a few times, only once did someone step forward and take the two children that needed to be watched. We often divide the kids when we go out.
Often I can find things for one or two of the children, but not all four. I'm home without transportation now, with both my partners working, and B who lives with us working full time. That means that weekday trips for all of us are pretty much not going to happen.
Brian, from everything I've read in your LJ and in the talking we've done, your not on the fringe of the community, unless you put yourself there. People want you and Pat to come to come to events. Maybe what you need to do is find events which you can bring your boys too.
Everyone I know with kids have problems finding babysitters.
Try seeing if you can divide your kids some for sleep overs at friends houses, just remember that next week you may be hosting the kids, your not alone.
Re: Babysitters
Date: 2004-10-23 08:37 pm (UTC)Fringe-wise... granted, we aren't invited to various events, but it has as much to do with not fitting in community social norms.