easier, in some ways

[jay]

As the nominal "holiday" season moves into its more-intense mode... not just shopping and secular consumerism, but various spiritual or philosophical observances... in some ways, being on the road is easier than being at home, in that I'm not caught in-between the social and spiritual. Good friends are hosting pagan events... Yule or Solstice... today and next Tuesday. Many of my local SF-area friends are likely to be at one or both of these... if I were home they'd be unlikely to accompany me to a Christmas service, so I'd feel funny about joining their observances likewise as a non-participant guest. Even certain local parties with pagan overtones leave me feeling a bit uneasy at times, and I generally miss those that are tied to specific dates or observances. Meanwhile, even at our home church (St. Timothy's Episcopal, in Mountain View) I'm viewed there as an outsider, somewhat suspect because of my other relationships (and not allowed to serve in volunteer roles).

Last year, we stayed in CA and it felt a bit divisive or isolating around this time, for me. This year, that isn't an option... more a matter of deciding which local church to attend as visitors on Christmas. Easier, if still rather disconnected from friends and community.

Comments

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

...and I am noticing that I have no Christmas-related plans, and that while there is lots of socializing with friends, I miss family. (so am fixing that by making plans for New Orleans and Houston with Mom, but more on that one later).

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Last year I skipped the solstice-related socializing with friends *and* missed seeing blood relatives... at least this year, the latter exists for me. Although I'll miss inviting you over for Christmas dinner... (hugs).

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I'd be curious to hear more about your feelings at pagan gatherings, and how you handle those.

I'm assuming that this comes from your being a practicing monotheist, but admit that I don't know the source of the feelings for you.

I suffer from perhaps an opposite problem - for a long time, the idea of setting foot into a catholic church was something I did not want to consider, and is still a big Somewhat Scary thing for me to do. It means missing out on a lot of very meaningful music and being far away from people who do some really good ritual, but it's not my place anymore and I have feelings of pain around that. There is something very special about a place that is made and built and maintained for ritual and for community. It's powerful.

I'm not sure I qualify as a pagan per se, I tend to be a person who prefers to avoid theologies attached to my mystical practices, because I am still running very very scared from dogmatism even years after walking away from catholicism. That said, I do feel a sadness that the established ritual spaces I'm aware of tend to not be pagan. I'd like to see more established ritual spaces for all different kinds of people.

Of course, one of my consolation prizes is that I've gotten a better awareness of being able to worship anywhere under the sun. But christians can do that too!

I find it interesting getting to know you, and to learn about how you think and believe. Thank you for being so open!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm firmly a monotheist, or tritheist depending on how one views the Christian trinity. It is OK in my framework to accept or venerate references to lesser entities -- angels, saints, or perhaps the pagan deities -- but not overt worship of such.

I look at it as there being a large intangible universe in parallel with and surrounding our physical universe, where things like theorems or computer programs have existence.

Sorry that you feel cut off from that source of ritual and music... but I respect feelings of pain and scariness coming from that direction.

And thanks, yourself, for sharing.

[inflectionpoint.livejournal.com]

On a lighter note, I once managed to get into one of the larger catholic churches in SF with my friend Ning, who is both Chinese and not any flavor of christian at all.

We were there for a musical performance, and afterward walked around a little bit. He had some questions about aspects of the decor, and I explained to him a little bit about why catholic churches are built the way they are. There are reasons for many parts of the design and even the furnishings and decorations throughout the year. Strange how that stuff lingers in the mind.

Anyway, eventually he wanted to know what was going on with the concept of the holy trinity. And I explained a bit to him, including the fact that in my former tradition, the holy spririt is often represented as a dove.

And then...

He looked me dead on, with a serious expression and said, "So you... you... you pray to a bird?!?"

His humor and gentle teasing were a wonderful gift to me at that moment.

And no, I don't currently pray to any birds, doves or otherwise.

I'm enjoying getting to you better and hoping that the holidays are treating you well. Twas fun to not-break-in to your house, by the way.

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

There are times when we go down to Louisville we end up going to my Bro and SIL's church, which is Catholic (Bro is still technically Lutheran, but SIL and the kids are Catholic). I feel uncomfortable in there, and in the last few years we haven't gone (and it hasn't been a problem), but it still feels weird.

I'd probably feel the same at a pagan event, except I'd be somewhat intrigued just because I haven't been to a pagan event before.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

It's stretching to go into a strange spiritual environment... sometimes uncomfortable, agreed.

[p3aches.livejournal.com]

If I were staying in town id go to a christmas service with you.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks! (smile)

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

I think if you were here and you were to invite us to attend a service with you and our schedule were open we'd seriously consider it. I don't think of myself specifically as "Pagan" but as "Christo-Pagan", incoroporating more honor of nature and old ways into my still quiet but deep devotion to the sacrifice and life-led-as-example that Jesus provided.

As it is, we are hoping to attend midnight Mass at a Catholic or Episcopal church this year.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Hm. That's a bit unexpected to me, and I'll make note of it. I'd probably be slow to invite anyone -- not because I wouldn't want your company, but rather because I'm concerned about seeming to prosletyze (which IMO is impolite among friends).

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

I think it is also true that your church meets some needs for your family, that may not apply to friends who are not families that include small children. (Granted, I've not been to the other services, which may have a different feel/flavor to them).

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

Just remember that how you view things doesn't always match how others view them. I invite friends to church all the time...they either take me up on it or they don't. I don't invite them to prosletyze but perhaps because they might feel comfortable there or I think it might resonate with them or because of the music.

I actually just had this conversation recently with a gentleman who both he and his wife are of a pagan bent but not quite. She's about to go through a ritual she'd like him to attend. He doesn't want to because he doesn't quite believe the same and doesn't want to seem like he's supporting "that faith path without reserve". I reminded him that he can say, I'd love to go and share your joy and support you in your path without converting himself.

There's never anything wrong with saying to a sweetie or friend, "I know you don't believe the way I do but I [think you'd really like the music this time] [the message that's going to be shared this time] [would really like your support/presence at this event]."

I think I've said it before...you only ever here no always in your own mind. If you don't ask, you don't allow the opportunity for a yes to happen and for your life to be that much more full. You have to be willing and ready to accept a "no" without rancor or too much disappointment but you certainly don't want to lose out on those possible yesses.

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

hmmm, could you let me know where you are going? I might like to come with

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

Will do!

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

Will do.

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

I like going to gatherings of other religious groups every now and then - they are interesting to me, and give new perspectives. And sometimes I actively enjoy them - I really get a lot out of going to Quaker Meeting and Buddhist Sitting, for example, even though I don't consider myself to be one of those groups.

If it were important to you that I came to one of your church's services, to better understand you, I'd do it. I went to a church service with a friend during Xmas of '99 because she was visiting and wanted to hear good High Mass music, and it was nice.

If you don't want to come to our households' various observances, we certainly won't push you to - but you're always welcome to come and be a part of the friendly atmosphere (which is mostly similar to W&S), and either stand silently or be out of the room when the brief religious parts happen. As it is, we have 3 different religious themes going in the household at the moment - the living room has my menorahs and dreidls up next to my housemates' Xmas and Solstice ornaments.

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

I wrote,

but you're always welcome to come and be a part of the friendly atmosphere (which is mostly similar to W&S), and either stand silently or be out of the room when the brief religious parts happen.

You're welcome to participate in the rituals too, of course! But the others are options as well, if they are more comfortable options for you.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Having multiple ornaments up in a diverse household seems appropriate... and I also enjoy occasional visits to the services of other groups, as I learn and increase my understanding of them (and often recognize commonalities :). I'm a bit wary of inviting friends and sweeties to mine, out of a concern that I'd appear to be prosletyzing.

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

Meanwhile, even at our home church (St. Timothy's Episcopal, in Mountain View) I'm viewed there as an outsider, somewhat suspect because of my other relationships (and not allowed to serve in volunteer roles).

Why aren't you allowed to serve in volunteer roles? That seems odd.

[coyote3502.livejournal.com]

In the mind of many Christian leaders (pastors, priests, etc.) there's a certain "moral code" which is to upheld by church members. That moral code excludes multiple relationships.

[trinker.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry your church experience has become so distancing for you.

That said, I've enjoyed Catholic Christmas mass in the past, despite it not being my tradition at all.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks... I enjoy the ritual aspects, this time of year.

Worship services

[suspira20.livejournal.com]

Many are obviously yearning for fulfillment that they are not finding in their current modes of worship. I see in the other posts that many have left Christianity based on traumatic experiences with the Catholic church and its rituals and politics. I am a practicing born-again Baptist, and I can not imagine attempting to navigate life's trials and tribulations as well as joys and celebrations without the strength and love of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

I have a number of friends who find Catholicism rigid, unforgiving, and sometimes hypocritical. Others find comfort in the rules and ritual of the faith. Might I suggest visiting Christian churches of other denominations that may better meet your personal convictions and fill the void you may be experiencing in your life? Even different churches within the same denomination vary in worship services. The large church I now attend affords more opportunity for involvement, but lacks the intimacy of the smaller churches I have attended. It is well worth the effort to find a church home.

Re: Worship services

[tenacious-snail.livejournal.com]

(nod)

I used to involved in a church that was primarily gay and lesbian, and that drew a lot of its members from Baptist backgrounds, and a lot from Catholic backgrounds. The members wanted and needed to keep Jesus in their lives, but their former churches taught a message that you can't be actively gay and actively a member of that church (and I know that there are people within those churches that believe you can). It left some people wanting worship just like what they are used to, whether that was ritualized and contemplative, or joyful and exhuberant...and others wanting something different in a worship style.

My own experience of St. Tim's is that it IS a good choice for the kids, but that in choosing to be kid-friendly (and to attend the kid-friendly service, which makes sense for him), it means not getting as much in terms of what might be spiritually nourishing for him.