dimly lit, but nice

[jay]

This evening, after a bit of friction with patgreene, I went up to House Dreamland's housewarming party around 10pm... it was a party. Pretty good, a bit crowded, lots of people I'd never met or only seen once or twice. My soon-to-be boss at work, RD was also there (invited by hopeforyou... he knew no one else there besides her and I, so I talked with him much of the time. To the exclusion of several other people with whom I would have liked to spend more time, granted, but I felt that I needed to be responsible and welcoming where RD was concerned (and hopeforyou was too busy hostessing).

But I nonetheless got a chance to have a nice talk with charlottesmtms, probably longer than if I'd gone to tomorrow's brunch. And my housewarming gifts seem to have been put to good use. And I should find a way to see brooksmoses more often... however, rosemom wasn't there tonight, pity.

OTOH, rosefox looked beautiful and stylish in her long black dress (another LBD ;)! circusscreamer had a lovely scarf woven through her hair, and she and bikerscum and karenbynight and others were exchanging clothing outfits for awhile... I have a photo *).

There was a power outage at one point... people who were there with a partner or two could cuddle in the dim candlelight. Which diminishes conversation, at least verbal... less fun for the non-partnered, but that's our problem. I actually left the party feeling a bit touch-deprived...

Which reminds me that I don't know the etiquette for dealing with puppy piles at parties, as a general issue. Do I pretend that they aren't there and look through them? Try to avoid glancing in their given direction? Or smile and make vaguely salacious remarks in their general direction? What if the pile includes people I'm otherwise friends with? I don't know whether I should respect their privacy (even on the floor at a gathering) and not officially recognize them as present... or pretend that nothing is going on, and try to chat with them while standing at the edge and looking downwards. It isn't an easy situation, IMO...

Comments

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

It seems that you got there immediately after I left.

[ame-chan.livejournal.com]

I don't really know how to deal with puppy piles either. But the last one I saw I sat down on the fringes and joined in the discussion and pretty soon I was in the middle of it getting spanked, so you know, that was good. ;-)

Joining in the discussion is always ok as is sitting down on the edge and joining the group I think, though I don't know what the etiquette is about the touchy stuff.

[brooksmoses]

We should find a way to see each other more often, yes. Definitely.

(Incidentally, I think you've got your Lauras confused -- while I suspect intenselaura would be a good LJ handle for the Laura at the party, it belongs to a different person -- somewhat younger, and she lives in Ontario. Unless I'm deeply, deeply mistaken.)

[mactavish.livejournal.com]

I tend to respond to them by being on the outside if I'll get to cuddle with someone I really like and know cuddling would be welcome with and not misunderstood also on the outside. I don't want to be where someone I don't want to cuddle with can snuggle up next to me. And I don't want to be where I won't be comfortable moving my body into a comfy position for me.

In the big futon puppy pile last night, I stayed on the outside next to deyo, who seemed more comfy being squeezed in with a bunch of women, for some odd reason. He's more physical with people he doesn't know well, I think. (I found out later that he also knows the folks he snuggled with better than I thought he did at the time, as he's been getting to know them while helping folks from HD move from place to place.)

One person there, sitting on the corner of the futon -- no names -- was very shy, and quietly admitted it. When mikz got up to do something else (he was on the other side of the pile from me) I sort of said, "Is there any room for [name of shy person] if he wants it?" in order to both provide him an opening into the pile if he wanted it, and to allow him room to say, "Oh no, I'm fine over here."

He did get in on the outside. I think having a safe, non-squeezy outside-of-the-pile place for folks like him and me is a good thing.

I'd strongly suggest basing your response (Brian, who asked the original question) on the context. At a sex party, I might try not to stare but might watch casually. But this was NOT a sex party. It was just a party where close snuggling was fine. In either context, salacious comments would be out of place unless you knew all the folks in the pile well, and knew the comments would be welcome.

In this particular context, I'd say:
Do I pretend that they aren't there and look through them? Try to avoid glancing in their given direction?
Maybe if you're uncomfortable around them -- but then it'd be better just to go sit somewhere else. Otherwise, no. Puppypiles aren't trying to be invisible or private, or they wouldn't be in the corner of a well-travelled room.

Or smile and make vaguely salacious remarks in their general direction?
Not salacious, but friendly perhaps.

What if the pile includes people I'm otherwise friends with?
When I was in the pile, folks were standing around and having conversations with us. I had a long conversation with Beth from my cuddlespot, and I know mikz and dryadgrl were both alternately in the pile and outside of it conversing, as was I. If the people in the pile want privacy, they should go somewhere else.

[hopeforyou.livejournal.com]

Yes, I believe Brooks is correct. The name you are looking for is circusscreamer.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Thanks to you both -- fixed the reference.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Talking from the edges sounds reasonable. Actually joining a group... I'd need to be invited first.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

to both provide him an opening into the pile if he wanted it, and to allow him room to say, "Oh no, I'm fine over here."


That was very kind and considerate! Most people would have ignored him, or left him hanging.

salacious comments would be out of place unless you knew all the folks in the pile well

Not the case last night. Although my definition of "salacious" would be along the lines of "hmm, looks like you guys are having a good time" or "that's efficient use of floorspace!"

Maybe if you're uncomfortable around them
Sometimes, both because I don't know how to react and because it amplifies my feeling like an outsider... the closer a group is, the more isolated I feel watching it. Something like that...

being on the outside if I'll get to cuddle with someone I really like

That makes sense... although personally, I couldn't simply join a pile, even on the outside, unless I thought that I'd be welcomed (explicit invitation, as for the guy you mentioned).

I've actually never been in a puppy pile at a party... the closest equivalents in the past two decades were the amoeba-like things at PPPs, and once sitting with a group watching a video at runeshower's place. So the concept is novel, and appropriate behaviors are unclear.

More thoughts on the puppy-pile etiquette thing....

[brooksmoses]

I'm not sure if my thoughts are really all that useful, since this is just from a very limited amount of observation, but still; I offer them, and hope they're useful.

The main thing, it seems to me, is that to a large extent puppy piles aren't that much of a special case -- they're just a group of people who happen to be sitting close together and touch-interacting to a greater or lesser extent, and the relevant etiquette seems to be about equal to the sum of its parts.

To elaborate: From previous conversations (with hopeforyou, among others) I'm fairly sure that nobody in that group of people minds people watching them be "physically demonstrative" in public -- if they wanted privacy, they'd go find some. As a more extreme example, I'm pretty sure it's fair to treat the impressively non-G-rated kisses that circusscreamer was giving a few people as in some part performance art for sake of anyone who wanted to watch. Or to ignore, if one preferred to ignore them; no obligation either way.

Beyond the snuggly stuff, the puppy piles at the party seemed essentially to just be a group of people who happened to be sitting on the floor really close together, and they interacted with other people following what looked like the same etiquette rules as any other group of people would. Sometimes the people in them were clearly looking at each other and having an obviously somewhat private interaction (whether talk or touch), but more often, they were facing out into the room, and seemed to have the same sorts of interactions with passersby and not-in-the-pile conversers as one would expect from someone sitting at the side of a room.

I also don't think that it was a matter of "pretending that nothing was going on", so much as that a lot of time there really wasn't that much going on that affected conversing with the people involved; it was mostly sharing personal space, and a lot of the touch seemed to be the half-subconscious sort that's about creating an environment rather than a focus of attention. So it seemed more a matter of not taking it as relevant to the conversation, rather than pretending it didn't exist at all.

As for joining the group -- I think, really, that the same sorts of rules apply as any other case where you want to sit next to someone in a spot that might be in their personal space. Generally, in most of the cases, there were places near the puppy pile where one could sit and join the conversation without invading personal space, and those were occasionally occupied by people who just sat down and started talking. In some cases, this was followed by a bit of nonverbal (and probably half-subconscious) negotiation in which the people in the puppy pile moved a little bit closer, and responses were judged, and the newcomer got absorbed into the pile to a greater or lesser extent -- exactly the sort of nonverbal negotiation that you'd expect from a case of sitting down next to someone and having it lead to cuddling.

This doesn't, I suppose, mean that it's easy; wanting to be in someone's personal space can be really awkward to ask for outright unless one is quite sure the answer will be yes, and sometimes the relevant people don't notice that you might want to be there and make a direct offer, and sometimes there isn't the space to sit nearby and have a nonverbally-negotiated moving-closer happen ... but this really seems to be a general issue rather than one specific to puppy piles. I suspect there's a whole art to nonverbally asking without really doing so, and to verbally asking without making things awkward, that neither of us are really particularly good at.

At least, that's how it seems to work from what I can tell.

[dancing-star.livejournal.com]

humm I don't know the etiquette for puppy piles either, I've always noticed that when I end up in them it is pretty natural or I wander off and find something else to do.

Glad to hear you had fun.

[intenselaura.livejournal.com]

Mistaken only on the age part -- I'm just over a year older than circusscreamer.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

the impressively non-G-rated kisses that circusscreamer was giving a few people

That left me in a context bind... to watch (performance art) or ignore them (privacy)? It was uncomfortable for me, in that setting.

touch-interacting to a greater or lesser extent

Okay, but that's a foreign reference for me... I don't know what that means, in a group setting. Only one-on-one. Unless one counts being crammmed into subway cars with one's face pushed into a stranger's back, that sort of thing.

a lot of the touch seemed to be the half-subconscious sort that's about creating an environment

Hmm... I find touch distracting to a conversation, when I'm talking to someone. I feel like I'm not getting their full attention... there wasn't much, if anything overtly sexual going on, kisses aside, but just the existence of touching had a dampening effect on any conversing with the touchees.

exactly the sort of nonverbal negotiation that you'd expect from a case of sitting down next to someone and having it lead to cuddling

(palms open) I lack context, sorry. I've never done this, or had it happen to me. If I'm interested in sitting closer to someone, in their personal space, and a seat next to that person opens on a couch... I've always held back, waiting for an explicit invitation. Otherwise, I'm afraid that I'll annoy that person by sitting too close, and they'll dislike me and leave.

a whole art to nonverbally asking without really doing so

Probably. But applied to flirting, or cuddling, or social situations in general -- I'm clueless. I'm capable of standing across and pining for someone across the room that themselves is sitting ignored on a loveseat... because I don't know if they'd want my company, and don't want to bother that person.

[brooksmoses]

(May I just say "Aargh! LJ's comment forum is a really awkward way to deal conversations that involve quoting lots of bits and interspersing comments in them and continuing the chain. Sigh." But we deal. And this 4300-character limit is an annoyance, too.)

[passionate kissing as performance art]
That left me in a context bind... to watch (performance art) or ignore them (privacy)? It was uncomfortable for me, in that setting.

For me, it's in some ways a learned skill not to find it uncomfortable. And still takes a conscious realigning of my initial reaction, sometimes.

[touch-interacting to small extents]
Okay, but that's a foreign reference for me... I don't know what that means, in a group setting. Only one-on-one. Unless one counts being crammmed into subway cars with one's face pushed into a stranger's back, that sort of thing.

I think possibly a more common example (and one that doesn't require polyamory) is two people sitting snuggled up together reading separate books. Although that still may be a foreign reference; I dunno.

[touching as distraction]
Hmm... I find touch distracting to a conversation, when I'm talking to someone. I feel like I'm not getting their full attention... there wasn't much, if anything overtly sexual going on, kisses aside, but just the existence of touching had a dampening effect on any conversing with the touchees.

Again, I suspect this may be something that involves (or has involved) conscious thought-realignment on my part. But it also depends on what touching is going on; some of it involves focus, while some of it's just absent-minded hand motions -- it's more the latter that tend to not really be interruptions to attention.

(cont.)

[brooksmoses]

[nonverbal negotiation for sharing space]
(palms open) I lack context, sorry. I've never done this, or had it happen to me. If I'm interested in sitting closer to someone, in their personal space, and a seat next to that person opens on a couch... I've always held back, waiting for an explicit invitation. Otherwise, I'm afraid that I'll annoy that person by sitting too close, and they'll dislike me and leave.

Have you watched other people do it? That was one of the fascinating things about your post, and why I wrote such a long response, in part -- I read it while the memories of interactions at the party were still fresh in my mind, and I could go back through them and see how some of these things happened, and pick out the nonverbal negotiations that I hadn't really consciously been paying attention to at the time. But it can be really interesting (and possibly useful) to watch how other people interact, and when they end up cuddling without verbal negotiation, to see how they got there.

I think the key is this: if a space opens, and you sit there (often with a verbal "May I?" request -- but at this point you're asking for a communal space, not for getting into their personal space, so they're really unlikely to feel particularly uncomfortable about it), then you wait, talking to them but not moving into their space. It is now their turn to make a move -- you wait, and watch how they're dealing with the shared space. If they're comfortable sharing space and wish to indicate such, they'll indicate this by moving closer, often in a manner that's sort of by relaxing in that direction instead of overtly moving. At this point, you're showing that you're receptive to this, by not really moving away to compensate. Eventually, if they do this enough to get a notable bit closer, it can be your turn again, and you can try moving a little closer to them, and see if they respond by moving away and being slightly tenser, or by being receptive and relaxed. This process then repeats.

At least, that's my theoretical understanding, based on a small number of datapoints and a large amount of semi-logical conjecture. *grin* I realize that having a theory isn't all that much help in doing this in practice, though -- for one thing, it completely glosses over how to tell how comfortable the other person is. (It does, at least, address the "annoy them by sitting too close" issue -- the trick, I think, is that you position yourself at a distance that is sufficiently far away that their personal space is respected, but close enough to invite them to move closer if they wish to. And then it's up to them to be closer or not.)

[an art to this nonverbal negotiation]
Probably. But applied to flirting, or cuddling, or social situations in general -- I'm clueless. I'm capable of standing across and pining for someone across the room that themselves is sitting ignored on a loveseat... because I don't know if they'd want my company, and don't want to bother that person.

Seeble. [1]

At best, I mostly just look like I have clue, I think. And sometimes have things work out, usually by someone being obvious enough to get past the cluelessness. And occasionally I notice enough to have things to say about it, and someone happens to ask at just the right time that I end up working out what I've noticed in lots of words in response.

I do think it's something that one can learn to get better at, by watching how other people do it....


[1] Have you come across this in your corners of usenet? It's a verbish thing, meaning essentially "I am your sibling in this", although with far less formality than that phrasing.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

a learned skill not to find it uncomfortable

How did you learn it? It isn't as though there are guides or lessons... sigh.

two people sitting snuggled up together reading separate books

If the other person is a stranger or just-friends, that's also a foreign reference. But I have snuggled up while reading, next to a partner (someone that I know is okay with having me in close proximity ;). If I don't already know that a priori, I'm reluctant to sit down in proximity to the other person, even to read.

just absent-minded hand motions
True, these may not be consuming more than a few percent of that person's attention... but they're visually a distraction while I'm trying to talk with that person, so my attention is also partially deflected.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Natural for some, I guess... it seems strange to me.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Have you watched other people do it?

No. I've noticed person A approaching person B, and sometime later they're cuddled, but I've always assumed that it was because they were partners or exes or were otherwise already on "touchable" terms. It seems magical, in the sense that there's no observed activity and then *poof* something changes. So I haven't seen any identifiable nonverbal negotiations.

at this point you're asking for a communal space

I worry about bothering others by being in their nearby communal space, too, enough so that I hold back from asking for empty seats on trains and busses, likewise in restaurants.

It is now their turn to make a move -- you wait

Pretty much what I do, except that I wait for the other person to move first -- it's the only way to be sure that my presence is welcome.

if they do this enough to get a notable bit closer, it can be your turn again

I actually had a chance to try this a bit today, after lunch. Mixed results...

I mostly just look like I have clue, I think.

Don't underestimate yourself... besides, simply projecting expertise and confidence is 80% of the task, in other, non-social realms.

Have you come across this in your corners of usenet?

(grin) yes... a couple of years ago, after seeing it used for a few years beforehand, I finally asked for its definition (on alt.poly)...

[bdot.livejournal.com]

1. what is seeble?

2. i am not a puppy pile type person, but i do know that if you want to join and you don't want to just sit down, then you have to ask. the worse that anyone can say is no. getting over shyness has been one of my hardest mountains to climb...and i'm only about half way up. notice, i disappeared for large amounts of time at the party!

[brooksmoses]

what is seeble?

See the note after "[1]" at the bottom of my previous reply. (The business with the "[1]"s is a convention for doing footnotes in some of the newsgroups I frequent; I'd forgotten that not everyone does them that way!) Basically, it's an expression of siblingness -- a genderfree way of expressing "Sister!"

[brooksmoses]

No. I've noticed person A approaching person B, and sometime later they're cuddled, but I've always assumed that it was because they were partners or exes or were otherwise already on "touchable" terms. It seems magical, in the sense that there's no observed activity and then *poof* something changes. So I haven't seen any identifiable nonverbal negotiations.

Well, I did notice a fair bit of it in one case because I was directly involved (basically, it happened, and I spent some time afterwards wondering how it happened!); in a lot of cases it can be somewhat subtle and hard to see unless you're looking for it, I suspect.

In that particular case, your assumption about being already on "touchable" terms wasn't at all true. And she did make a move that could quite easily have been unwelcome. I don't know if it was obvious to her from my body language (and my reactions to accidental touches) that I would welcome it, but it wasn't even obvious to me until she did it. Sometimes, you have to take risks, and just believe they'll be ok. :)

[brooksmoses]

How did you learn it? It isn't as though there are guides or lessons... sigh.

It's not really the sort of learning that one needs a lesson for, I think; for me, it's just a matter of consciously reminding myself not to be uncomfortable (and reminding myself that the people involved aren't expecting privacy) when I'm someplace where people are being demonstrative that way. After many repetitions, it becomes more internalized.

In other words: practice, practice, practice.