Ramblings of an itinerant rocket scientist...

As to the former...rejected implies "judged and found wanting". I see it as actually more of a "mismatch of needs/wants". It's more like not bracing for the awful impact of the needle when going for an injection. Flowing with the moment is easier and less stressful.

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Heh. I find that needles are easier to contemplate... rejection, in various guises, happens several times a day.

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Being braced for it all the time takes away energy that could be used elsewhere. And feeds the self-flogging machine. Bleah.

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sinboy.livejournal.com

"If I believe that I am unworthy of being loved, then I can prevent my feelings of total devastation when I am rejected."

Is it possible that your fear of rejection is stronger than the actual pain that rejection would take? Or that there might be some more effective way of dealing with the pain of rejection?

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It isn't so much the fear of rejection, as having coping strategies. I expect rejection, and am rarely surprised as a result. And it dulls the pain if one can rationalize it away.

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sinboy.livejournal.com

I wonder if there might be some way to have rejection stop hurting you so much.

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I don't know --

trinker has some way to avoid the "judged and found wanting" response, but it isn't apparent.

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Finding this many days later...sorry for the delay.

There are people with whom I don't match well. Sometimes, they're people that are dear to people I do match well with. I can only conclude that this person has value even if I can't see it. And that if this is so, then I must have value despite someone else finding me not to their taste.

To put into formulae:

I like A. A likes B. I don't like B. Still, because I value A and A's judgments, I conclude that there's something likable about B even if I can't see it.

Therefore, even if C doesn't like me, the fact that D does implies that there's something likable about me, even if it's not something that C values.

The idea that one can be likable to everyone...maybe some people can, but I'm not one of them. I don't aim to be so affable that I get along with everyone. I have strong opinions, and I'm okay with that, most of the time.

Make any sort of sense to you?

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Okay... that makes sense. Sort of a half-full model... D sees something worthwhile, so there must be something of value there. My model has been closer to half-empty: that if C doesn't like me, and D does, then D must be missing something that C sees (and thence, once D knows me better, they'll agree with C). So I live on an edge, wondering when friends and partners will depart.

Still... your commutative approach is interesting. There are certainly people that are liked by my friends in whom I see little attractive or interesting, and those people must have some value and redeeming virtues. Inverting that... hmm.

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princeofwands.livejournal.com

It sounds like you've taken these two points from

circusscreamer as affirmation. Referring to them as "Rules to live by" and "another fundamental SOP." But at the core of her revelation was that these beliefs were damaging to her.

So - following

circusscreamer's inspiration re:
"If I believe that I am unworthy of being loved, then I can prevent my feelings of total devastation when I am rejected."

And her breakthrough in setting that belief down and stepping away from it, putting her in a position where she "suddenly accepted her own worth"...

What lesson will you chose from putting a name to this burden? How will you choose to grow?

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Give that man a ceeegar!

I like the way you think.

-J

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dawnd.livejournal.com

But at the core of her revelation was that these beliefs were damaging to her.

Yes, exactly. She was doing Depth Oriented Brief Therapy at the time. These statements are the "emotional truth" underlying these counter-productive behaviors. The initial belief ("I am unworthy") is held as a way of staving off the imagined consequences ("I'll be devastated when rejected"). But it becomes clear as you say this out loud how ultimately ridiculous that is as a path to safety. Obviously, believing oneself unworthy does NOT prevent the feelings of devastation when the seemingly-inevitable rejection does come. If anything, it intensifies them.

If you are interested in doing DOBT for yourself, I would highly recommend Bruce Ecker, who literally wrote the book on it. He's in Oakland, and can be reached by calling 510-452-2820x2. The essence of DOBT is that profound change is available from the very moment you walk in the office (as opposed to "traditional" therapies where one can often spend a year "developing a relationship" with the therapist before one achieves anything of substance). As such, you only make one appointment at a time, deciding at the end of each one if you need to come back. He has evening and weekend hours, too.

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They seem like emotional truth, certainly. Intellectually, I can verbally tell myself that I have value, that I've accomplished much, that I have many talents and skills... but it just doesn't take root. At a gut-level, some core emotional response has been burned deeply, as though branded with a hot iron. Sure, the easy thing would be to tell myself and everyone else that of course I have value, am worthy of love and affection, etc. And at some level I believe it. But underneath, at the level of deep emotional responses, I still believe otherwise. Internal contradiction between the cortex and limbic system, perhaps.

believing oneself unworthy does NOT prevent the feelings of devastation

not prevent, but in my experience they become more manageable when there's a reason -- when I can rationalize why these things are happening. It's somehow less threatening to my core self.

And thanks for the reference, that sounds perfect :-).

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geekchick

in my experience they become more manageable when there's a reason -- when I can rationalize why these things are happening. It's somehow less threatening to my core self.

Wow. I understand wanting to rationalize, but saying that your feelings of unworthiness as a rationalization are less threatening or hurtful just seems completely backward to me. How is "I'm not worthy of anything other than rejection" less threatening to your core self than thinking "it could just be a mismatch of wants/needs/scheduling availability and has nothing to do with whether I'm a lovable person or not", which is something you don't really seem to be taking into account? For me, thinking that someone's rejected me because of who I am (which is what I think follows from the "I'm not worthy of being loved or accepted" idea) is much more damaging than assuming that it might just be because they don't want to have an LDR, or because I will only ever have Wednesday nights free and the only open spot on their calendar for the next three years is Friday mornings, or because they're going out for an evening to do something that I don't particularly enjoy. (Example: I wouldn't be hurt if someone didn't ask me to go out dancing with them, since I've said often that it's not something that I find all that fun.) Granted, I'm simplifying a lot and rambling, but hopefully you see where I was trying to go with this. My point, when I had one... ;)

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patgreene.livejournal.com

They would probably be less threatening because they mean there's a *reason* behind what happens -- even if the reason is in fact unreasonable.

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It's less threatening because it is familiar, accepted, part of the scenery. And rationalizing that I'm OK, but that instead the world is broken and unfair... it feels safer to assume that the world is basically fair and reasonable, and therefore if bad things happen to me, it's because I must have deserved them. Or earned them. Because then I can convince myself that if I just strive hard enough, am ethical and unselfish, and am sufficiently well-behaved toward others, then bad things won't happen to me.

Not that there aren't lots of cases of tragedies striking undeserving folks... these are just my internal feelings and structures, they aren't necessarily logical.

But if the world is basically arbitrary and unfair, then no amount of striving or good behavior will help me... then I would feel absolutely vulnerable, helpless, lacking control over myself. I might as well become a hedonistic beach bum and wait for the inevitable... eating, drinking, and being merry, because I'd be helpless otherwise.

So, if I'm unworthy and unlovable, then any rejections and bad things are what I deserve, the world is therefore fair and reasonable, and I can then maintain the illusion of control over myself and my greater circumstances.

*That's* why I'm reluctant to change my personal outlook, if I go deep. That, and the potential embarrassment if I've really gotten things that wrong for that many years... I might have to disappear.

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geekchick

Thanks for unpacking that for me. Okay, I can see how that follows for you, especially with things you've said earlier about your preference for feeling like you're in control.

That, and the potential embarrassment if I've really gotten things that wrong for that many years... I might have to disappear.

This part, however, I'm not sure I follow. Why would you feel like you had to disappear?

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If I've thrown away decades -- if I thought that I was *that* much of a lifetime f&*kup -- I'd be too embarrassed to face my friends or partners in the future. And would have suddenly recognized the existence of a mammoth debt-owed to them for putting up with me previously, one that I couldn't hope to ever repay. Life would be pretty bleak, then...

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Perhaps you might find it ironic or something rather than just mean if I say that I find this logic -- I'd rather keep doing what I'm doing, even if I think it might be wrong, because at least then I can pretend it's okay -- to be a bit of...well, "NASA-thinking".

If what you're doing is broken, what good is continuing to do it rather than stopping it as soon as you realize it's a broken paradigm?

Why do good things, be a productive person, in search of some sort of external validation rather than the satisfaction it brings yourself?

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(grin) I appreciate the irony...

If one is not sure that it's a broken paradigm, but fears that it might be broken, what does one do in the meanwhile?

In the NASA analogy, there are old-guard engineers or managers who realize that their time is past, that they're technically obsolete or incapable of untwisting the convoluted political strands... after a screwup, they retire, opening up leadership positions for new people with more energy and newer ideas and fresher backgrounds. In a personal sense, if one has screwed up one's life, there's no way to retire from life, save suicide. So hunkering-down and continuing becomes preferable...

Why do good things, be a productive person, in search of some sort of external validation rather than the satisfaction it brings yourself?

Because I don't value or trust my own emotional responses very much... external validation is far more important to me.

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I can't lay claim to any breakthroughs, only to recognize similar emotional constructs in myself. But it isn't clear that her approach is better... either I'm unworthy, but the world is a generally fair and supportive place, or I'm worthy and the bad stuff than has happened is then due to the world being unfair and pernicious. I can try to fix myself over time, but I can't fix the world... so which belief-structure is actually more depressing?

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Those aren't the only two possibilities. Come on, you're more reasonable than that. How about: you're worthy, and the bad stuff that has happened is then due to your attitudes/behaviour as a result of those negative belief structures? And that's just one that I thought of off the top of my head. You're doing the same thing all over again -- identifying something and then not *doing* anything about it. Identifying is well and good, but it doesn't help you at all unless you work to change the things that are problematic.

Someone I know and love just got finished with intensive therapy for social anxiety. The content of this therapy included identifying negative beliefs about oneself as incorrect, and taking steps to replace them with new, positive, correct beliefs. The change in her is truly remarkable. She socializes without having to rely on other people to do the work for her, she thinks of things to say in conversation, she lets her true personality come out, even in groups of people she doesn't know well. I've often thought this might be a good thing for you; now I'm sure of it.

From everything I know about you, your gut reaction to this will be to argue. If you want to argue, don't respond at all. Sit on your fingers. Just think about it. And just think about *this*: Wouldn't your life be a lot easier if you didn't have all this garbage to worry about?

-J

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(grin) you know me pretty well. But I won't argue here. I've explained some of my deeper motivations above in my reply to

geekchick.

I need to figure out what I'm getting out of those old belief structures -- there must be something, or I wouldn't cling so tightly. Then I can address the same underlying needs (for a sense of purpose, or control over my life, say) by some other, healthier means. That sounds similar to the belief-replacement process that your near-and-dear one employed... so, what kind of therapy did she find useful? Was it something like the link that

dawnd posted? Thanks...

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I don't know anything about the therapy your friend underwent. Judging from the name, it sounds like it might be a more "esoteric" form of therapy than I personally would be comfortable with -- I have more faith in forms of therapy that are based on research and which you can read about in articles written for and by clinical psychologists than I do in those you might find in the self-help section of a bookstore. That's my bias. But that doesn't mean the other therapies wouldn't apply similar techniques, so it might well be the case that they have a lot in common.

In any case, I am most definitely not a trained psychologist, but from observing you and knowing you, my best educated guess would be that you would benefit greatly from the kind of therapies people use to treat social anxiety disorder. It looks to me like you have a number of irrational beliefs about yourself and the way other people feel about you. Furthermore, since you pride yourself on being a rational being, it also looks like you've become quite an expert at rationalizing those irrational beliefs, and when other people point out how they are irrational, you dig your heels in further. You've commented that those beliefs are protecting you, but from an outside perspective, they sure look pretty debilitating. I think social anxiety therapy of the sort that my friend underwent would eventually free you of those beliefs, and give you the chance at having stress-free, happy social interactions. It's not something you could do on your own, though -- it's something you would have to work on with a qualified therapist.

I'm not expecting you to respond positively to this -- everything I've observed about you so far indicates that you'll tell me that you were declared perfectly healthy by a therapist so why bother going back, or that it wouldn't be worth the time or money, or even that these beliefs I'm calling irrational are in fact perfectly rational. If you're planning on responding by saying any of those things, don't respond at all, because I've heard it before. If, though, you decide that you're interested in hearing more about the kind of therapy I'm describing, I can put you in touch with my friend. (She's someone you've met, in case that matters.)

-J

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I don't feel impaired, per se, but given persistent external suggestions I've been considering it, if I can find something that won't drag out over years to little net effect -- or require medications. The brutal-but-quick therapy that

dawnd referenced is interesting (and has been discussed in various journals), albeit at higher risk. But as long as I'm looking, I'm open to other suggestions...

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Okay. I don't know if that will count as enough of an expression of interest for my friend to lay herself on the line, but I'll run it by her and see what she thinks.

-J

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Hey Brian,

I'm the person Jae was talking about who just 'graduated' from intensive social anxiety therapy. The course of therapy I went through was a pretty traditional cognitive-behavioral approach that was tailored specifically to address social anxieties. The group essentially broke down into 4 types of activities:

1) Role plays in group to practice anxiety-provoking situations. This included mingling practice for everyone as well as role plays designed on an individual basis, according to people's needs.

2) 'Experiments' outside the group (at least one/week). We started off with the easiest ones and worked up to the difficult ones. They're called experiments because some failure is expected. The key thing when we got together each week to discuss our experments was that we focused on (a) what we learned (b) what we were proud of and (c) what we would do next time. Often what people would do is that one week they'd role play something and get feedback on how they handled it and then they'd go off and do teh experiment and come back and talk about it. Sometimes they'd role play the same thing several weeks in a row, until they felt able to tackle it in 'real life.'

3) We learned strategies for dealing with negative automatic self talk. Those are the negative things that we say about ourselves in situations and the negative interpretations we plce on people's actions. When I read descriptions of your social ventures and your life in general, I see these scattered throughout. This is something I really struggle with. You know how you argue with people when they contradict you? I was just as bad for a very long time. My ex-girlfriend and then Jae started breaking me of the habit of arguing out loud but I still *thought* the negative things. And I still argue sometimes and then Jae ends up beating her head against the wall. 90% of the reason I went to therapy was to make my life happier and better. The other 10% was to make life happier and better for people who love me. The sheer repetition and the practice of the techniques I learned helped me somewhat with my problems but it's the last part of the therapy that made the big dent.

4) Attacking core beliefs. Core beliefs are exactly what they sound like, the basic, essential beliefs that we hold about ourselves and the world. Some people believe that the world is unfair, others believe that they are socially inept, someone else might believe that they aren't worth loving. The therapy sessions I went to worked on attacking those beliefs overandoverandover again in many (like a dozen or so) different ways so that we could all find something that helped. The cumulative effect of all of the techniques was that I actually started to believe my 'new' healthy core beliefs that I wrote with teh help of the group almost all of the time. I can't begin to describe how it felt to slowly feel myself begin to belive that I was a fun person who had a lot to offer and who was worth loving.
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TBC

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Thanks for being willing to share :-).

it's the last part of the therapy that made the big dent
How would you rank 1-4 in terms of their contribution toward addressing your long-term social anxiety? Given your quote, I would suspect that #4 would have had the most profound effects, but perhaps #1 - #3 were needed to get to the point of attacking the core beliefs?

My ex-girlfriend and then Jae started breaking me of the habit of arguing out loud

I don't understand this... they wouldn't argue with you? What happened if you each wanted to go to different restaurants for dinner, or disagreed about politics? Did they try to shut you up? That sounds... controlling.

Negative self-talk has its uses...

with. You know how you argue with people when they contradict you?

Sure... (puzzled look) what else would one do? Unless I thought the other person was correct, and I'd been oblivious...

they'd role play something
Practicing introducing themselves, and the like?

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How would you rank 1-4 in terms of their contribution toward addressing your long-term social anxiety?

4 is definitely responsible for the long-term effects. 2 & 3 were definitely required both to get me ready for success at #4 and because they gave me something immediate and practical to work on so I could see results. 1 (role plays) weren't at all helpful to me in the format the therapist used. I knew they wouldn't be and warned him in advance. He didn't really believe me until we were well into the group. Towards the end I found ways to make the role plays more useful for me and because of my experience, he's changing the options for role plays in the future for people who find them too easy.
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Re: the arguing thing. I don't mean they never argued with me about anything, I mean that they worked to break me of the habit of automatically defending my negative automatic thoughts. What would happen is that I'd say something negative about myself (or something more subtle) and KB would conntradict it, often with evidence that I was wrong or exaggerating. I'd keep arguing my position. This reinforced all of the negative thoughts that I held because I sought out evidence in support of my position and *totally ignored any evidence that supported a more positive view of myself*. Eventually I realized that they very act of KB arguing with me made things worse. Jae takes a different tack and tends to stop responding when I get all negative about something (there are some areas, like writing, where I'm still dealing with the negative automatic thoughts) and eventually says, "I'm not arguing with you about this. It isn't accomplishing anything." For me, it's exactly what I need. I don't have something to fight against so I'm less locked into my position, completely unwilling to listen to any alternative. Also, it points out to me that I'm arguing, possibly irrationally, and I can rethink things with the tools I now have.

We still discuss/argue/whatever things like politics or restaurants. And Jae has never tried to control my behaviour, she's controlled her reaction to it and that's more than allowed. Plus, as it happens, the way she controls her behaviour gives me cues I can use to reassess my thoughts.

Negative self-talk has its uses...

You know, I sat down and made a list of pros and cons of my old attitudes and thoughts and my new attitudes and thoughts and you're absolutely right. Negative core beliefs and negative self-talk totally have their uses. That's how come they develop. But I looked at that list and all of the pros of my old attitudes were short-term gains and the cons were long-term, severe losses. And it wasn't worth it to me to hurt myself so badly for the benefits I was receiving. I saw the other people's lists, too, and they came to the same conclusion.
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You know how you argue with people when they contradict you?

Sure... (puzzled look) what else would one do? Unless I thought the other person was correct, and I'd been oblivious...

The thing is, Brian, that what I always did was argue automatically without even registering what other people said or discounting it entirely. And I've seen you do the same thing. Arguing is one thing, blindly sticking to your position is another.
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Practicing introducing themselves, and the like?

Oh, all kinds of things. We picked out own. A popular role play was to pretend to approach a stranger in a bar or at a party. One guy had to fire his realtor during the course of the group and role played it in group first. One guy gets freaked out by reading out loud and he read out loud things a couple of weeks. One guy had wanted to share his story at an AA meeting for 20 years and never had the courage so he told it to us for practice. We picked out role plays that were relevant to our life.

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There's a measure that is used to evaluate social anxiety and I took a pretest and then a posttest. After 20 weeks of therapy, my scores dropped immensely on all parts of the test. Most significant to me, though, was the difference in how I felt. I went back to Edmonton after session 19. While I was there, I made conversation with strangers in the folkfest line. I initiated conversations and chatted happily with people I had never met before. Even with people that I find intimidating because of their sheer coolness. I flirted with Dar Williams from the front row of the session she was in! And then, when I got her to sign my CD later that day and she remembered me, I wasn't the least bit embarrased or flustered. Most significant to me was that the edge of insecurity that I have always had with respect to my relationship with Jennie was 100% gone. The lack of it was such a relief!

I had full confidence that the therapy would help. I'd done my research on methods of therapy and on the therapist and everything and I knew it would help. I didn't anticipate that it would make so much of a difference. There were some things that I hadn't even realized were difficult for me until they became easier. It amazes me almost every day.

You and I have some similarities in our problems. Just like you, I functioned perfectly well in work-related situations but faltered in purely social situations. I had insecurities relating to the 'cool kids' that dated back to my youth. I had issues with believing in my attractiveness to other people. I love social contact but didn't feel competent at it. I believed fully that I was seriously flawed and unlovable. Any of that sound familiar? I really think you could benefit from some kind of similar therapy- specifically the attacking automatic thought and the core beliefs parts, although the successes in experiments really helped cement in good thoughts about myself when I did them. The thing is, though, that success in this kind of therapy requires effort. You only get out of it what you put into it. If you're actually interested in pursuing it, I'd be glad to talk more with you about it and to ask my ex-therapist for recommendations for a therapist in your area. I'll answer questions here, in email, or even by phone or in person next time you're in the area. And if you go ahead, I'll listen and be supportive as you attempt the therapy. But I have absolutely no patience for arguing or listening to you being self-defeating. Just to warn you up front. Because my reaction to you when you are self-pitying or self-defeating is to say (to my computer because I didn't feel like saying it to you would make any difference) "I just worked my *ass* off for 5 months to make my life better! Do something about your life or shut the fuck up about it already!" I think I'm like an ex-smoker- I have less patience than someone who was never in your position. I am more than willing to help you out, though, if you actually want help.

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Any of that sound familiar?

Most of it, sure... I don't feel that I'm unlovable, but most of the rest of it is true.

chatted happily with people I had never met before.

(smile) that's great! Especially since you sound like you could do so while relaxed.

The lack of it was such a relief!

Excellent, and reassuring... but I don't understand the connection between social anxiety and the strength of your relationship with Jennie... unless by doing the therapy, you gained her approval, and hence felt more secure afterward.

I hadn't even realized were difficult for me until they became easier

Okay... hard to imagine, but I'll take your word on it.

You only get out of it what you put into it.

My own experience with therapy is that even that is optimistic... if I could convince myself that it was actually likely to show results, I'd be doing it now. If I could find someone in the area that took Blue Cross...

or shut the fuck up about it already!

At others' behest (mostly Jennie ;), I've started putting my more emotional, introspective or whiny posts behind warning tags... I hope that that has helped a bit. Thanks...

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