As an aside
Aug. 4th, 2003 11:06 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jayIf getting laid was a priority of mine, I wouldn't dare to voice public opinions that I know might alienate some potential (or even current) partners...
If you're wondering what I'm talking about, it isn't worth your time...
If you're wondering what I'm talking about, it isn't worth your time...
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 11:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 11:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 11:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 07:33 pm (UTC)Or at least those who like you for other reasons and are willing to -- however reluctantly -- put up with the way you do some things.
And this is true love
Date: 2003-08-05 12:41 am (UTC)Incidentally, I'm not sure about exactly what brian is trying to say.
p.s. I'll be at the Linux WE thing in SF.
Re: And this is true love
Date: 2003-08-05 02:17 am (UTC)the Linux WE thing in SF
huh?
no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 02:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 06:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 03:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-06 09:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 01:00 am (UTC)Sort of like catching negativity from others in a bucket and then throwing it back out the window... problem is that it doesn't necessarily splash on those from whom it was originally received. Attempts to "correct" my behavior by bullying or name-calling then simply fill the buckets faster... leading to the opposite of the nominally-desired effect. It can spiral.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 12:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 12:40 pm (UTC)*handwaving* Sometimes, dear, it seems like you almost go out of your way to try to alienate potential or current partners. I know you see this as a sort of way to weed out people you think are likely to flake out on you, but I think you're cutting yourself off from a lot of people who would otherwise be excellent friends or possibly even partners with some of the ways you present yourself. If I was just getting to know you, frankly I'd be put off by the "I know this is probably going to alienate or hurt people I care about, but I'm okay with that" attitude that I'm getting from your statement above. And even the non-flakiest partners might one day get worn down by it. (That probably comes across like some kind of threat, but it really isn't.)
Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-04 12:56 pm (UTC)I'm also bothered by your attitude of never wanting to take an active role in changing things about yourself that cause you problems. This is bothersome not in an angry-making way, but in a frustrating way, because I know that if you were more willing to work on those things, you'd be a lot happier. It's hard to watch. Because as much as you frustrate me, I do want you to be happy. I just think happiness is something that has to be worked at.
-J
Re: Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-05 02:00 am (UTC)(Although, do my LJ entries about work, like the past couple of weeks of fieldwork, require a calm state likewise -- or just the more-personal entries? I'm wondering about content v. writing style... )
As I said to
So this isn't a good strategy. I talked to a friend over lunch today about this provocative-defensive approach, and she reiterated that it was keeping people away, including some from whose company I'd otherwise benefit. Changing myself is hard, at a core fear-response level. It's taken years to simply be able to explain what I do, and why. I hope to have a better strategy someday, but I can't honestly say what that will look like.
Re: Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-05 05:18 am (UTC)And of *course* it's scary to try and change it. Change is scary, and taking steps to change *yourself* is the scariest thing of all. But if you don't do it, you're skipping the most important step. If you're able to analyze what's wrong, and explain it to others, but you take no steps to change it, then what you're doing is making other people responsible for your flaws. You're saying: "Look how smart I am that I've figured out my strategies! Now it's up to you to change your behaviour to accommodate them."
This is one of the reasons why I've always recommended therapy for you. Therapists are supposed to be there to help us identify things that keep us unhappy, and then work out how to change them. You seem to have the first half of that down to a science (and more power to you), but you might be merely human after all and need a little guidance on the second half. Most of us do. You're saying now that you "hope to have a better strategy someday," but that's not going to happen if you just sit there and will it to come to you, right? Surely the scientist in you can recognize that. :-)
As for whether your entire journal requires a calm state for me, it's not every entry, nor even every personal entry. Certain things set me off: the entries where you're talking about how awful you are, or the entries where you're passive-aggressively lashing out at someone else, or the entries where you're explaining how lousy a time you had at an event after having refrained from mentioning this while it was going on. But the effect is that since these kinds of entries set my teeth on edge, I often avoid your entire journal in case I might run into one.
I reiterate that I'm impressed with your ability to analyze yourself and come up with the likely culprit. I remain hopeful that you can take that to the next level. It's why I stick around, albeit at a safe distance.
-J
Re: Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-05 01:58 pm (UTC)*ding* *ding* What Jae said. =)
Re: Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-06 10:14 pm (UTC)Re: Plain truth
Date: 2003-08-06 10:10 pm (UTC)Which isn't just... not fair to them, granted.
At the same time, when confronted with hostile groups, the "I'll beat myself up so you'll all lose interest and move on to more amusing prey" tactic still works in some situations. It is/was a schoolyard survival measure... and hence is bonded to some very deep reactions. Hard to eradicate those when I can't figure out what to put in their place... try to trash the other side instead? Run away? Seem to ignore it while quietly plotting revenge? Those responses are not self-abusive, but I'm not sure that they make me a better or more interesting person.
need a little guidance on the second half.
I used to have a therapist, actually, up until a year ago. I was authorized for counselling originally because of nominal low-level anxiety when things were at their worst between myself and
Not that I couldn't use some guidance on the second half... but, at least in the US, getting it is prohibitively expensive. So I rely on informal feedback, discussions with friends, and contemplation.
you're explaining how lousy a time you had at an event after having refrained from mentioning this while it was going on
Ah... but in that case, complaining at the event might offend my hosts and seem ungrateful. While typically the hosts won't notice or be pointed to read my online venting afterward, especially if I'm not blaming them.
avoid your entire journal in case I might run into one
Hmmm... would some kind of drama/personal-musings-filter help?
why I stick around, albeit at a safe distance
Which I greatly appreciate. Apart from missing you as a person if you left, a good editor (or external reviewer) is precious ;-).
no subject
Date: 2003-08-04 05:52 pm (UTC)Not to mention....
Date: 2003-08-04 07:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 01:34 am (UTC)Sometimes I say or do things that I know will draw some criticism or portay myself in a negative light... this has a filtering effect. Those who know me reasonably well, or who are determined to see past the smokescreen, can usually see past that level of obfuscation. Those people who were only tangentially interested or mildly interested in me as a person will typically back away at those times. In careful moderation, this can be a useful strategy for maximizing quality of friends and contacts while keeping their numbers manageable. Plus no one can claim that I oversold them on my virtues... people generally like me better as they know me better, given that I downplay myself initially.
When I get defensive or hurt, though, moderation disappears. If people are close, then I'm vulnerable, then I can be hurt worse. One response is to do or say things that will drive people away, including my friends and beloveds -- after all, if I'm universally disliked and reviled, I'll be alone but at least I can't be hurt further by anyone then, right? I retreat to my figurative island, posting warnings and daring any others to follow me. Only a few hardy and compassionate souls manage to stay attached through those times, when they occur. And the rest of the world probably looks at you at those times and wonders about a martyr complex (as
no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 06:29 am (UTC)Perhaps you should work on the "careful moderation" part then, as to me it doesn't seem like that's been happening.
Plus no one can claim that I oversold them on my virtues... people generally like me better as they know me better, given that I downplay myself initially.
See, the problem here is that there are a lot of people who would probably end up being wonderful friends who just won't ever get to know you better because you make it so hard for them. You know I love you dearly, but to be completely honest, if my first introduction to you had been in the context of the polyamory thread, or the sfbay-poly drama, I'm pretty sure that I would've just written you off as not worth the effort of getting to know. First impressions really do make a difference in whether someone feels inclined to make the effort to know you better, and the one you would've made on me with those arguments would not have been favorable. (They still drive me up the freakin' wall, but at least I know that there are a lot of other things about you that I love.) If your presentation would've discouraged me from getting to know you, think about how many other people who would be equally steadfast friends or lovers might have encountered the same thing.
Augh, late for work, will try to continue this later.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-06 10:26 pm (UTC)In the past few months, it hasn't worked well... before then, it seemed useful.
who would probably end up being wonderful friends who just won't ever get to know you better
Proving a negative is hard... it's hard to mourn the loss of friendships of people I never knew, it seems like an abstraction. Losing existing friends, or losing opportunities to get closer to them, feels real.
First impressions really do make a difference in whether someone feels inclined to make the effort to know you better
Perversely, this has become a disincentive to change... or at least neutral. Taking you at face value, I've presumably already made a bad first impression all around this community. Since this will stick for years to come, it's then too late for any change to positively affect my prospects. And even if I strove mightily, it would never be enough to satisfy my harshest critics. So, I would have little remaining to lose in that area...
long and rambling
Date: 2003-08-07 06:15 am (UTC)It's never too late to not make things any worse. :-P People can and do change, I think most folks realize that. A lot of the frustration with you I think comes from the fact that even when it's obvious a behavior is causing problems, you don't appear to make much effort to do things differently. Now I know that you have, in fact, made some effort on this front, but I don't think a lot of it it would necessarily be obvious to people who don't spend as much time talking with you or aren't as close to you. The bit I quoted above sounds to me like a case of "yeah, but..."; ("X makes me miserable." "Okay, so why don't you try Y?" "Can't/Don't wanna do Y because Z.") I'm not saying anyone expects you, nor should you expect yourself, to completely change the way you present yourself overnight, that's not possible. I also know that it's hard work; I've had to do similar work myself in the past (and need to do some more, honestly, as I'm slipping back into flake mode recently). Trust me when I say that the work I put in to change some of my social behavior patterns that were causing me problems paid off, because these days I count some really faboo people as friends who probably wouldn't have wanted to come within 10 feet of me when I was still indulging in my previous drama queen behavior. I should note that part of what helped as well might've been disconnecting mostly from the social circle I was previously in; I still am friendly with people who were/are part of that circle, but it's not my primary focus for social interaction any more. The local poly community is hardly the be all and end all of social interaction in your area, I'm pretty sure; maybe you could try a bit of a fresh start too and branch out a bit, in which case being aware of and working to eliminate some of those behaviors which consistently seem to rub so many people completely the wrong way would be a good thing.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-05 11:14 pm (UTC)Thank you for giving me the context for your original statement tonight when we talked, and letting me know that what I was reading from you was not what you were really saying; having the conversational context helped. (Lalalala, still not reading the thread, lalalala... ;) )
Happiness is a choice
Date: 2003-08-04 06:35 pm (UTC)...it isn't worth your time
Um. Right. Now I'm guessing this reflects your view of yourself(?) Or the purpose was contrary ...you said it to attract attention(?) Only we readers can decide what's worth our time, but no doubt you know that already. This reader (me!) sometimes experiences empathy in your emoting, and sometimes perspective on myself ...so thank you for expressing.
Re: Happiness is a choice
Date: 2003-08-05 02:12 am (UTC)Admittedly, the tone was a bit patronizing, sorry. It actually reflected my frustration over an ongoing thread over on
Granted, every person can consciously choose their reaction... I'm saying that (a) I'm not particularly tactful, (b) I say things without bothering to filter them to cast me in the best-possible light, and (c) sex hasn't been a personal priority in my life. Others have commented to the effect that sometimes I go too far, casting myself intentionally negatively and causing collateral hurts to those close to me. That may not lead to alienation, per se... some people have chosen otherwise, or I wouldn't have any friends or partners left.
Re: Happiness is a choice
Date: 2003-08-05 02:54 am (UTC)