Defining rites of passage

[jay]

Given a debate in the hallways at work today with hopeforyou, over someone's celebration this evening ... I just don't see how celebrating the onset of an icky, unpleasant bodily function that causes half the population to be cranky and require chocolate and paper products one out of every four weeks is a rite of passage, other than as an affliction. Might as well design a ritual to celebrate, say, acne as the door to adolescence.

In this culture, IMO the things which most clearly delineate children from adults are gaining independent mobility and finances. So I think that a first paid outside job and gaining a driver's license are the true rites of passage in the US, both usually happening around age 15-16.

Comments

[datagoddess.livejournal.com]

Because it's a passage into physically being a woman. Yeah, the monthly physical side of things sucks, but without it there would be no mothers, no children. It's the rite of passage into the community of women, no longer just a girl.

Given that boys don't have such a clear delineation between childhood and young adulthood, I can see why you don't see the point.

And without that affliction, and girls becoming women, you wouldn't have quite as much fun as you do, me boyo.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

you wouldn't have quite as much fun as you do, me boyo.
Heh. Given the relative libido of most of my partners, "much fun" seems a stretch... but the status quo's still better than zero, admittedly.

[simplykimberly.livejournal.com]

I can probably say a lot more when I'm not on my way to said ritual, but I want to speak up for all the women who don't get grouchy, cranky, miserable, or in pain because of their menses. Nor do I find it messy, icky, or unpleasant. In fact, since onset, and without any fanfare on my family's part, I've found it empowering and life-affirming. It reminds me of the wonder that is my body, and one of its most amazing functions. I thought that at 14, and I still think it today. And that was without anyone telling me so, fwiw ;)

The power to create life is something that is, or can be, felt by any woman who is in touch with her body, and wants to feel that power. And of course, there are many alternatives to paper products ;)

((hugs)) and off with me!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Interesting data point, though it's hard to imagine all of that ooziness not being messy, at least. And I thought that most women (yourself excluded, granted) are/were afraid of getting pregnant during any given cycle... I suppose that choosing to not exercise that power is still affirming, in some way.

[karenbynight.livejournal.com]

Ditto. The word that best describes my menstrual cycle is "nifty". My body does this really interesting thing every month. It probably helps that on average, I'm more likely to get the happiness hormones than the crankiness ones during "PMS".

I also came to this conclusion despite a lack of any real positive messages about menstruation. My mom, being a nurse, was practical about it all; the rest of the universe, especially teenage boys when I was a teenage girl, were really rude. (why are women weird? because they can bleed for seven days without dying...). I'm all for being intentionally and constructively positive about menstruation, because the messages that get commonly passed around about it clearly miss the nifty things about it that many of us feel... as is evidenced by your assessment, Brian.

[dangerpudding.livejournal.com]

Not all of us see it as icky or unpleasant or an affliction. (I don't imagine that you've ever even heard me complain about it.) However, that it can be so make it all the more important to start it off in the most pleasant way possible. If a girl is going to be dealing with this 12+ times a year for the next, oh, 50 years - she may as well feel welcomed into that.

Plus, I think our culture lacks rite of passage rituals, in a lot of places. I'm all for finding them where we can.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

You haven't audibly complained, agreed, but you often can seem stoic, holding far greater pain inside. So that's IMO not a reliable means for assessing whether you're hurting, one way or another.

I suppose starting a 50-year sentence off in the most pleasant way possible is a good thing. She may as well get a party out of it...

[phinnia.livejournal.com]

I disagree with the driver's license: I still don't have one. :-)

[cjsmith.livejournal.com]

Negative or not, it's a real and sometimes very powerful passage/change. If it were me I'd appreciate some recognition of what I was entering into (in my case Hell).

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(nods) I had been asking Jen why it wasn't more of a commiseration than a celebration...

[rosefox]

I would like to note that your criteria don't work so well in a place with good public transit, where kids are usually mobile on their own around 12 or 13. *)

I don't like the idea of celebrating physical ability for procreation as the sole criterion for adulthood. It's an easy dividing line for women, but it prioritizes physical adulthood over emotional adulthood; it's like having a party when someone grows taller than 5'. It also leaves out men and anyone who can't have sex or bear children. I'd much rather start asking around age 11 or 12 "What do you think is the difference between adults and children? When do you think you'll be more like an adult than a child?" and tailoring celebrations and observances to the individual's answer.

Getting my first period was important to me, but mostly in an "Oh good, all the bits work like they're supposed to" way, with a bit of "Now I'm old enough to have sex" thrown in. Burgeoning adulthood for me was much more about having my first steady boyfriend and other social things, because I was raised to believe that friends are very important and that being able to choose good friends and form healthy long-lasting relationships was a major hallmark of maturity. Even having sex for the first time wasn't entirely an adult thing, but a kids-figuring-all-this-stuff-out thing.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Your approach to assessing that transition seems more reasonable to me than a sign of physical adulthood... I wasn't entirely kidding with the comment about acne (another physical sign).

Transit-wise, that would simply mean that kids in places with good public transit, er, tend to grow up faster :).

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

I don't like the idea of celebrating physical ability for procreation as the sole criterion for adulthood.

As I've now tried to explain to brian1789 a few times, this was not a recognition of my child becoming an adult all of a sudden....that's a bit ridiculous. This is a recognition that an important thing has happened to her, her body is changing just as her life is. This is a milestone of sorts and we're giving it weight and encouraging her on her way as she continues to journey to adulthood. It was very affirming to her and every woman who participated, that I'm aware of, felt positive about the ritual.

Burgeoning adulthood for me was much more about having my first steady boyfriend and other social things, because I was raised to believe that friends are very important and that being able to choose good friends and form healthy long-lasting relationships was a major hallmark of maturity.

Likewise with my children......this was not some out of the blue ritual that just happened because she got her period...as I've said above, it is part of the process and a recognition of the progress she's made as a person to this point....this is just a convenient, and in its own way powerful, event that allows us to pause for a moment, celebrate her progress, celebrate her as a "woman" and encourage her futher growth.

[cerulean-me.livejournal.com]

Getting one's first period is a big deal. I know that I woke up that day and felt different. Though there was drama (and thus trauma) to follow. My mom didn't welcome it, there is a great big, "Oh GREAT!" and it was disheartening. I was the first in my peer group to get, so I sort of became the person that all my friends and friends of friends came to for advice.

I believe that a ritual would have been something to make that transition easier. Also, it would have better armed me with good information to pass on, and and given me a solid background for support.

Lastly, I do have some worry that each cycle may bring pregnancy, as a result, my period is a welcomed visitor. Cramps really are no big thing. I am no more bitchy than usual. It's no more a mess than taking care of any other bodily function.

I deeply love this phase of life, which is different than where I was a child, and is different than where I will be as a crone. I can't change it- so why not embrace it?

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Something more than ruined bedsheets? I can understand wanting to create something positive to counter the built-in negatives. Other than being glad of non-pregnancy :).

[elissaann.livejournal.com]

I don't see how anything that requires chocolate can be all bad.

But seriously, there may be women who see it the way you do. I am not one of them. I find it to be neither icky nor unpleasant. It just is. There is sometimes pain. Mine is not debilitating. I get a day or two of emotional wackiness. If I watched my diet more carefully, there would be neither pain nor crankiness.

I find the whole cycle to be interesting. There are specific days during the cycle when my voice is particularly good. There are specific days when I'm more interested in sex than others. It's when the cycle isn't regular that I find it annoying and unpleasant.

I suspect that men find it ickier than women do.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Being subject to an out-of-one's-control cycle would seem highly annoying to me... what if I wanted my voice to be particularly good on the night of a concert, not two days before in rehearsal? That, and the general messiness, are just things that I guess women take as givens.

[iluvdaphne.livejournal.com]

Maybe as a rite of passage but a private one say with mother and daughter? If I may be so bold to say. Sharing it with friends seems sort of weird to me..IMHO.

I am Nancy a new person who has friended you, who really liked your pictures from your journey last week :)

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

Sharing it with friends seems sort of weird to me..IMHO.

And yes my daughter told me this evening after the ritual how special it was to her that she was welcomed into the community of women, recognized by them as a growing person and having it made known to her through this ritual even more concretely that she would be supported by these women.

Perhaps weird to some but very affirming to others.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Welcome, and I'm glad that you liked the pictures from the Arctic field work.

[deedeebythebay.livejournal.com]

It is difficult for me to read any of this. Despite being given valid reasons for the celebration and many of them repeatedly from people you supposedly like and respect, you continue to denigrate this celebration and the way that it handled.

And, by the way, I didn't say my child was becoming an adult....the entire celebration was that "Ok, now you have a very visible marker of your passage into adulthood, the journey you are on." And in my earlier response to your question, I explained the other "rites of passage" my children will experience and how they will differ as they mature and accept more responsibilities.

Instead, I see this post of yours again and feel like you are calling me foolish and laughing at me. Something that is important to me and has been very important to my daughter in the planning of it and the execution of it.

I'm happy that it was a wonderful ritual, that she was reminded of her continued need to "grow" and "learn" and "experience". To celebrate these changes, to acknowledge they may be difficult just as life is difficult but to find the beauty in all things.

I have to admit that your post and your responses to others explanations seems insensitive and stubborn enough to cause hurt feelings and I want to suggest that if you can't be affirming the least you can do is not subtly ridicule that which is important to someone else.

[lynne-laughs.livejournal.com]

1. I like that you can express your feelings. Some of the comments have been hurtful.
2. You know your daughter and you know what is important to her. Good for you to create the ritual and work hard to make it happen. The ritual was for HER, and if others feel it is silly or wierd or whatever then they are not seeing what is really important. The important thing is that you made something happen for your daughter that was meaningful and that she will remember for the rest of her life. Hurray!

[cyan-blue.livejournal.com]

The beginning of her menstrual cycle is a concrete datapoint that affirms what a bunch of us have known for a while - A is moving from childhood to adolescence, on the path towards adulthood. The ceremony tonight was partly about helping her to feel that we notice and welcome her emotional maturations, and that we see her status in our community changing. It also gave her the message that she has a powerful community around her as she goes through these many changes - that we're all here for her, thinking of her, looking after her, and celebrating her.

It's also a way of helping her to celebrate her body. It's lovely when people can revel in the beauty of their physical changes. A is proud of hers.

As for periods being "an icky, unpleasant bodily function that causes half the population to be cranky and require chocolate and paper products one out of every four weeks" - well, that's one way of looking at it, but it's not the whole way. There's beauty in the menstrual cycle in the sense that it's what brings forth life. It's neat that A can appreciate that aspect of it - and ceremonies like this one are part of what will help her to appreciate it.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

That assumes that bodies are to be celebrated, rather than maintained...

And the community that was there for her, with all due respect, was half of the broader community. As long as "community" == "community of women" here, your words stand.

And the physical evidence of the cycle is that life *has not* been brought forth...

[hobbitbabe.livejournal.com]

I really like the idea of making some positive acknowledgement of menarche. I also like the idea of already having the kind of supportive, egalitarian relationship between mother (or other older female guide) and daughter that it would not be difficult to figure out what kind of acknowledgement felt appropriate to the daughter. (I didn't have that myself, but our daughter did.)

Menarche isn't just a rite of passage and a marker on the gradual path to adulthood. And I can't figure out how to say what else it is without sounding like "you don't understand because you are a man", and I'm not inclined to be either that dismissive or that generous. Suffice it to say that I'm very glad that our daughter's father and her brother were gentle and respectful about her transition, acknowledging that it was a big deal for her and also significant to her mothers in ways that they could admire but not quite share.

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

Probably just as well that my kids are all boys... (wry grin).

[bdot.livejournal.com]

i attended the ritual.. i found it very nice and although i couldn't stay long due to my own personal issues right now, i think abby benefitted from the gathering of 30 women in her home to celebrate *her*.

times have changed.... no longer are "bodily functions" talked about in whispers and drs offices. i have listened to mv and her friends talking about it and they have asked me questions as well. i feel that this is a great improvement to the way i was raised. hell, i thought i was dying!

and "half the population" does not react the way you think they do... personally, i have no pain, no cramps, no bloating, no craving for chocolate or any other form of food, no fear of pregnancy, no mood changes, no PMS, and (yes, this is true) no need for "paper products". i *do* understand that you are making generalizations here... but frankly, i don't like to be "generalized"!

[brian1789.livejournal.com]

(nods) as others have indicated as well, the pain-and-inconvenience level seems to vary widely between individuals. It still seems a bit strange to celebrate the advent of even a mild form of menstruation, but IMO celebrating a young person's growth, however marked, is good.

I tend to be suspicious of same-gender-limited events, though, as a general rule.

[tshuma]

You have a way of phrasing things in matter-of-fact language that comes across as most insulting, superciliious, and provocative. It makes me wonder what your motive is... Are you really writing in this fashion because you want to understand, or are you just looking to cause the kind of reaction that you've so richly reaped in with this entry? Is it really just thoughtless language, or is it deliberately provocative? I don't know you well enough to have formed an opinion yet, but it does make me wonder.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

Not to speak out of turn, but the way Brian phrased this, and especially his replies, sounded like the way he gets when he's stressed and on the verge of depression/low self-esteem triggers.

He's never especially good at the "live and let live" way of phrasing things, though.